Well, the matters that were discussed off list would have been extremely
off topic for the list and would have violated list guidelines so taking
it off list was appropriate. As for the phraseology, there is a big
difference between discussing the subject of religion and pushing
religion. I suppose I could have said proselytizing or propagandizing or
something else, but I really have a hard time thinking of a word that
conveys the meaning that would not set off the bible thumpers. And it
was clear that that was the kind of science fiction that the person was
looking for. It is not what I would expect a real science fiction fan to
want.
On 9/18/2015 12:28 PM, Alice Dampman Humel wrote:
Roger,
I suspect that the phraseology “pushing religion” and its permutations is yours, and it might be the obvious pejorative “pushing” that caused the flareup, although, admittedly, with the religious fundamentalists, it doesn’t take much…
You yourself recognize one of these writers of religious science fiction to be good, and perhaps the book you scanned would have been bad writing even without the religion. In the example of Zenna Henderson, apparently there’s enough religion in there to satisfy those looking for it, but she was not crossing the line and “pushing” the religion, so it did not disturb or offend you.
I do find these people of whatever stripe who go off list with their hate mail when someone says something they don’t like to be extremely distasteful…it’s so cowardly and dishonest. If a person has something to contribute to a public discussion, then he should do so publicly, not hide behind closed doors and snipe at another person in secret.
On Sep 17, 2015, at 10:20 PM, Roger Loran Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC) <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Lana posted a message asking for recommendations of Christian science fiction. That really sounds like a contradiction in terms to me and as a science fiction fan I was not even aware of such a subgenre except for the fact that I had just recently finished scanning one. I didn't know what it was before I started scanning it or I would not have done so. A number of people started making recommendations of authors who happen to be Christian. One of them was Zenna Henderson. I have read some of her stories and I was never aware of any religious affiliation she might have and I never noticed that she used her writing to push religion, so I don't think that was what was being asked for. I made a post myself about the book I had scanned and said that I didn't like it and I would not recommend it, but it sounded like what was being asked for. That book is still in the approval queue and should enter the collection soon. The discussion started morphing into something about religion in science fiction. Since science is the study of reality and since religion is a part of reality religion is just as good a topic for a science fiction story as any other part of reality. However, these people were talking as if science fiction that pushes religion is the most normal thing in the world. Now, I am a long time science fiction fan and I was not even aware of such a subgenre and, like I said, it sounds like a contradiction in terms. Nevertheless, I had just scanned a book that seems to fit that subgenre and it was terrible. I mean that even without the religious stuff the writing was awful and it attempts to push religion sure didn't help. Since the conversation had turned that way and since I was a science fiction fan it seemed to be appropriate for me to offer my opinion just like everyone else was doing and so I made my remark about how it didn't seem like something that a science fiction fan would be interested in because religion is the enemy of science. That was an innocent remark that was relevant to the conversation. It was not an attack on religion out of the blue. But that was when everyone went ballistic. There were a few acrimonious messages on list and fortunately it died down pretty quickly, but I also started receiving private hate mail. The hate mail has not died down except that one of them did state to me that he did not want to continue discussion today because I was a bully. That might be the first signs of it dying down. Since I did not contact him privately and since he contacted me and immediately launched into the vitriol I thought that was funny that he thought that I was the one who was the bully and so I mentioned it here. Anyway, the whole bunch of them are busily reinforcing my image of religious types as hateful bullies. It's just like that other story I told you about. The one in which I was sitting on a bench minding my own business and found myself being asked if I know Jesus. I calmly replied that I was an atheist and found myself being chased down the street being screamed at. That was not a gratuitous attack on religion either. It was an answer to a question and I would have found it equally as funny if I had been called the bully in that situation. Okay, they have their identities, I have my identity too and they have no respect for it. It seems to me that if you want respect you have to earn it. You earn it by giving respect. If someone refuses to give respect I really don't see how I owe respect to them.
On 9/17/2015 9:44 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
I certainly didn't know about the private emails. But I am curious about
something. What is religious science fiction? I mean, what were they talking
about?
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2015 9:17 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: What Irony!
I think you misunderstood. You did not read the exchanges I was talking
about. They were emailing me privately to bash me over the head with
religion. Anyway, I did not bash religion gratuitously. What I had to say
was germaine to the discussion. I forget my exact words now, but it was
something like science fiction is the fiction that was founded and continues
to promote science and I don't see why a fan of science fiction would want
to read science fiction that pushes religion. It was science fiction that
pushes religion that was being talked about and I joined in on the
conversation. I only made one or two other posts saying that using science
fiction for pushing religion results in poor writing.
As for their identities, well, I have an identity too. If they have no
interest in respecting my identity then I have no reason to respect theirs.
They need to grow up and understand that there are other world views than
theirs.
On 9/17/2015 8:40 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Well, I read some of those interchanges, and then I stopped reading them.of the blue.
And I am not taking the side of the proponents of religious science
fiction which, to me, with my lack of knoledge of science fiction,
does sound like a contradiction in terms, anyway. But I can explain
why this person, or others, perceived you as a bully. The reason is
that you gave your opinion of religion when no one asked for it. No
one was discussing the value or validity of religion. In fact, most of
them feel that their religious beliefs are part of their identity. So
when you say something negative about religion in general, it feels to
them, like a personal attack. And to add insult to injury, you
expressed a negative opinion about religion gratuitously. So they felt
attacked by you or bullied by you, and it seemed to them, to just come out
Miriamwriting.
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2015 8:07 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] What Irony!
Here's a laugh for you. Recently I made a comment on the Bookshare
list that I think science fiction that pushes religion makes for poor
Actually, I think that any attempt to use fiction to push religionhe had no response to the logic trap I set for him.
results in poor writing, but the topic was specifically about science
fiction. Well, that caused several people to start emailing me to bash
me over the head with religion, bash me over the head and engage in
name calling and insults too. I have a policy anymore of standing up
to religious bullies even if not on the same level as they launch
their attacks. I just respond to them using reason to show them where
they are going wrong. Well, I backed one of them into a corner today and
Wouldn't you know it. He calls me a bully and breaks off
communication. Take note that I did not contact him or any of these
people. I only responded to what they were saying to me, though in a
much more civil manner than they did. Yet, somehow I am the bully?
