[blind-democracy] Re: What Irony!

  • From: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 16:03:27 -0400

No. I never read them. The only books that I knowingly read that had a
strong religious component, were the three books by Marilyn Robinson because
she had a bestseller recently, and it was the last in a trilogy, and I
didn't quite realize what I was getting myself into. Well, she's a really
good writer, but there's an incredible amount of stuff, bible quotes, that
are just really beyond me. I don't understand how all these supposedly
uneducated people understand this stuff so well and quote it and live by it
when I can't make heads or tailes of it.

Miriam

________________________________

From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alice Dampman
Humel
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 3:20 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: What Irony!


Maybe include? as in,science fiction that includes religion, has a religious
component, or religious slant

I haven't read the book yet, and I don't remember what it is called,
actually, I think there are a couple of books by this author, perhaps about
the same characters, was Gilead one of them? Miriam read them, I think, and
I remember her saying something to the effect that although there was
definitely a Christian milieu as a very real part of these novels, she did
not feel smothered by it like it was a pillow held over her nose and
mouth.did I get that right, Miriam?
Anyhow, I think that is very different from something like that odious John
Paul Evans or whoever he is.before I knew who he was, I began reading one of
his books, and I was so infuriated. The fundamentalist Christian air was so
thick, you could have cut it with a knife...
This should make you all laugh.before I knew who Glen Beck was, I read a
book, novel, he had written. again, I was so outraged and nauseated, I
looked him up, and, oh yes, did I ever find out who he is.
As for a "real science fiction fan?" Well, some like their hot dogs with
mustard, some with relish, some with ketchup and some with the works,
including chili and onions.they all would claim to be hot dog aficionados,
and of course, each would claim that the others have it all wrong...
On Sep 18, 2015, at 2:39 PM, Roger Loran Bailey (Redacted sender
"rogerbailey81" for DMARC) <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


Well, the matters that were discussed off list would have been
extremely off topic for the list and would have violated list guidelines so
taking it off list was appropriate. As for the phraseology, there is a big
difference between discussing the subject of religion and pushing religion.
I suppose I could have said proselytizing or propagandizing or something
else, but I really have a hard time thinking of a word that conveys the
meaning that would not set off the bible thumpers. And it was clear that
that was the kind of science fiction that the person was looking for. It is
not what I would expect a real science fiction fan to want.


On 9/18/2015 12:28 PM, Alice Dampman Humel wrote:


Roger,
I suspect that the phraseology "pushing religion" and its
permutations is yours, and it might be the obvious pejorative "pushing" that
caused the flareup, although, admittedly, with the religious
fundamentalists, it doesn't take much.

You yourself recognize one of these writers of religious
science fiction to be good, and perhaps the book you scanned would have been
bad writing even without the religion. In the example of Zenna Henderson,
apparently there's enough religion in there to satisfy those looking for it,
but she was not crossing the line and "pushing" the religion, so it did not
disturb or offend you.
I do find these people of whatever stripe who go off list
with their hate mail when someone says something they don't like to be
extremely distasteful.it's so cowardly and dishonest. If a person has
something to contribute to a public discussion, then he should do so
publicly, not hide behind closed doors and snipe at another person in
secret.

On Sep 17, 2015, at 10:20 PM, Roger Loran Bailey (Redacted
sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC) < <mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


Lana posted a message asking for recommendations of
Christian science fiction. That really sounds like a contradiction in terms
to me and as a science fiction fan I was not even aware of such a subgenre
except for the fact that I had just recently finished scanning one. I didn't
know what it was before I started scanning it or I would not have done so. A
number of people started making recommendations of authors who happen to be
Christian. One of them was Zenna Henderson. I have read some of her stories
and I was never aware of any religious affiliation she might have and I
never noticed that she used her writing to push religion, so I don't think
that was what was being asked for. I made a post myself about the book I had
scanned and said that I didn't like it and I would not recommend it, but it
sounded like what was being asked for. That book is still in the approval
queue and should enter the collection soon. The discussion started morphing
into something about religion in science fiction. Since science is the study
of reality and since religion is a part of reality religion is just as good
a topic for a science fiction story as any other part of reality. However,
these people were talking as if science fiction that pushes religion is the
most normal thing in the world. Now, I am a long time science fiction fan
and I was not even aware of such a subgenre and, like I said, it sounds like
a contradiction in terms. Nevertheless, I had just scanned a book that seems
to fit that subgenre and it was terrible. I mean that even without the
religious stuff the writing was awful and it attempts to push religion sure
didn't help. Since the conversation had turned that way and since I was a
science fiction fan it seemed to be appropriate for me to offer my opinion
just like everyone else was doing and so I made my remark about how it
didn't seem like something that a science fiction fan would be interested in
because religion is the enemy of science. That was an innocent remark that
was relevant to the conversation. It was not an attack on religion out of
the blue. But that was when everyone went ballistic. There were a few
acrimonious messages on list and fortunately it died down pretty quickly,
but I also started receiving private hate mail. The hate mail has not died
down except that one of them did state to me that he did not want to
continue discussion today because I was a bully. That might be the first
signs of it dying down. Since I did not contact him privately and since he
contacted me and immediately launched into the vitriol I thought that was
funny that he thought that I was the one who was the bully and so I
mentioned it here. Anyway, the whole bunch of them are busily reinforcing my
image of religious types as hateful bullies. It's just like that other story
I told you about. The one in which I was sitting on a bench minding my own
business and found myself being asked if I know Jesus. I calmly replied that
I was an atheist and found myself being chased down the street being
screamed at. That was not a gratuitous attack on religion either. It was an
answer to a question and I would have found it equally as funny if I had
been called the bully in that situation. Okay, they have their identities, I
have my identity too and they have no respect for it. It seems to me that if
you want respect you have to earn it. You earn it by giving respect. If
someone refuses to give respect I really don't see how I owe respect to
them.

On 9/17/2015 9:44 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:


I certainly didn't know about the private
emails. But I am curious about
something. What is religious science
fiction? I mean, what were they talking
about?

Miriam

-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for
DMARC)
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2015 9:17 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: What Irony!

I think you misunderstood. You did not read
the exchanges I was talking
about. They were emailing me privately to
bash me over the head with
religion. Anyway, I did not bash religion
gratuitously. What I had to say
was germaine to the discussion. I forget my
exact words now, but it was
something like science fiction is the
fiction that was founded and continues
to promote science and I don't see why a fan
of science fiction would want
to read science fiction that pushes
religion. It was science fiction that
pushes religion that was being talked about
and I joined in on the
conversation. I only made one or two other
posts saying that using science
fiction for pushing religion results in poor
writing.
As for their identities, well, I have an
identity too. If they have no
interest in respecting my identity then I
have no reason to respect theirs.
They need to grow up and understand that
there are other world views than
theirs.

On 9/17/2015 8:40 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:


Well, I read some of those
interchanges, and then I stopped reading them.
And I am not taking the side of the
proponents of religious science
fiction which, to me, with my lack
of knoledge of science fiction,
does sound like a contradiction in
terms, anyway. But I can explain
why this person, or others,
perceived you as a bully. The reason is
that you gave your opinion of
religion when no one asked for it. No
one was discussing the value or
validity of religion. In fact, most of
them feel that their religious
beliefs are part of their identity. So
when you say something negative
about religion in general, it feels to
them, like a personal attack. And to
add insult to injury, you
expressed a negative opinion about
religion gratuitously. So they felt
attacked by you or bullied by you,
and it seemed to them, to just come out


of the blue.


Miriam

-----Original Message-----
From:
blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender
"rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2015
8:07 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] What
Irony!

Here's a laugh for you. Recently I
made a comment on the Bookshare
list that I think science fiction
that pushes religion makes for poor


writing.


Actually, I think that any attempt
to use fiction to push religion
results in poor writing, but the
topic was specifically about science
fiction. Well, that caused several
people to start emailing me to bash
me over the head with religion, bash
me over the head and engage in
name calling and insults too. I have
a policy anymore of standing up
to religious bullies even if not on
the same level as they launch
their attacks. I just respond to
them using reason to show them where
they are going wrong. Well, I backed
one of them into a corner today and


he had no response to the logic trap I set
for him.


Wouldn't you know it. He calls me a
bully and breaks off
communication. Take note that I did
not contact him or any of these
people. I only responded to what
they were saying to me, though in a
much more civil manner than they
did. Yet, somehow I am the bully?













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