I read all three. Of the three, like John, I liked the second one best. I
was fond of the main character, the minister, in the first book who is
writing a letter to his son. The book is in the form of the letter. The
minister is about 70 and his son is about 6 years old. The last one, the
book that was on the NYT best seller list, the one I started out to read but
didn't get to read until I'd read the first 2, was my least favorite. But
no, the books weren't pushing religion. They were just completely steeped in
it, it's what they were about. Richard Paul Evans is a different story
altogether. He's sacarin, and he is commercial.
Miriam
________________________________
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alice Dampman
Humel
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 4:38 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: What Irony!
Those were the books I meant, by Robinson, the trilogy, and you read the
last one only? OK, I got it all a little confused.
But for me, anyhow, any book that is set specifically is going to include
elements of that setting, physical, historical, geographical, mental,
emotional, spiritual, religious, dietary, and on and on. For me, religious
is only one of those setting elements, and that's what I mean by inclusion
versus pushing or proselytizing.
If you read a novel set in a hospital, a medical setting, there will be all
kinds of things that pertain to that world, medical jargon, procedures,
interactions, diseases, treatments..If the book is about Jews, you'll come
across Yiddish terms, Shabbos traditions and food, synagogue practices,
dress, activities that are forbidden, if the characters are Muslim, then
there will also be elements of that culture and yes, religion, the muezzin
calling to prayer, what has to happen before the women can go out, how they
shuck off all that garb when they get back home, the fasting of Ramadan.
I don't take any of that as pushing or proselytizing. If the characters are
jazz musicians, then there will be a lot about jazz culture, clubs, late
nights, musical terms and concepts.
Anyway, you get the point.
Somebody like Evans and I imagine some of the Christian romance, something
I'd never, ever read, really do put a sermon on every page, telling you,
dear reader, about that you're gong to hell, and don't you see, and the
unbeliever gets religion, and they get married, and they have kids, and they
all go to Sunday school, etc.that's a different thing entirely, IMO. When
they start preaching, I don't care what they're preaching, I'm out of
there.I did finish the Richard Paul Evans book, because I wanted to find out
what happened to the girl.
But, as Miriam says, never, ever again.I read his name and I keep right on
going.Isn't he the guy who wrote several books about some guy who walked
across the country or something, and all the wonderful life lessons,
Christian, of course, he learned from all the things he experienced and the
people he met along the way? Interesting concept, but, fool me once, shame
on you, fool me twice, no way, I"m not getting lured into ever reading
another word this guy has written.
alice
On Sep 18, 2015, at 4:03 PM, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
No. I never read them. The only books that I knowingly read that had
a
strong religious component, were the three books by Marilyn Robinson
because
she had a bestseller recently, and it was the last in a trilogy, and
I
didn't quite realize what I was getting myself into. Well, she's a
really
good writer, but there's an incredible amount of stuff, bible
quotes, that
are just really beyond me. I don't understand how all these
supposedly
uneducated people understand this stuff so well and quote it and
live by it
when I can't make heads or tailes of it.
Miriam
________________________________
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alice
Dampman
Humel
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 3:20 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: What Irony!
Maybe include? as in,science fiction that includes religion, has a
religious
component, or religious slant
I haven't read the book yet, and I don't remember what it is called,
actually, I think there are a couple of books by this author,
perhaps about
the same characters, was Gilead one of them? Miriam read them, I
think, and
I remember her saying something to the effect that although there
was
definitely a Christian milieu as a very real part of these novels,
she did
not feel smothered by it like it was a pillow held over her nose and
mouth.did I get that right, Miriam?
Anyhow, I think that is very different from something like that
odious John
Paul Evans or whoever he is.before I knew who he was, I began
reading one of
his books, and I was so infuriated. The fundamentalist Christian air
was so
thick, you could have cut it with a knife...
This should make you all laugh.before I knew who Glen Beck was, I
read a
book, novel, he had written. again, I was so outraged and nauseated,
I
looked him up, and, oh yes, did I ever find out who he is.
As for a "real science fiction fan?" Well, some like their hot dogs
with
mustard, some with relish, some with ketchup and some with the
works,
including chili and onions.they all would claim to be hot dog
aficionados,
and of course, each would claim that the others have it all wrong...
On Sep 18, 2015, at 2:39 PM, Roger Loran Bailey (Redacted sender
"rogerbailey81" for DMARC) <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Well, the matters that were discussed off list would have been
extremely off topic for the list and would have violated list
guidelines so
taking it off list was appropriate. As for the phraseology, there is
a big
difference between discussing the subject of religion and pushing
religion.
I suppose I could have said proselytizing or propagandizing or
something
else, but I really have a hard time thinking of a word that conveys
the
meaning that would not set off the bible thumpers. And it was clear
that
that was the kind of science fiction that the person was looking
for. It is
not what I would expect a real science fiction fan to want.
On 9/18/2015 12:28 PM, Alice Dampman Humel wrote:
Roger,
I suspect that the phraseology "pushing religion" and its
permutations is yours, and it might be the obvious pejorative
"pushing" that
caused the flareup, although, admittedly, with the religious
fundamentalists, it doesn't take much.
You yourself recognize one of these writers of religious
science fiction to be good, and perhaps the book you scanned would
have been
bad writing even without the religion. In the example of Zenna
Henderson,
apparently there's enough religion in there to satisfy those looking
for it,
but she was not crossing the line and "pushing" the religion, so it
did not
disturb or offend you.
I do find these people of whatever stripe who go off list
with their hate mail when someone says something they don't like to
be
extremely distasteful.it's so cowardly and dishonest. If a person
has
something to contribute to a public discussion, then he should do so
publicly, not hide behind closed doors and snipe at another person
in
secret.
On Sep 17, 2015, at 10:20 PM, Roger Loran Bailey (Redacted
sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC) <
<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Lana posted a message asking for recommendations of
Christian science fiction. That really sounds like a contradiction
in terms
to me and as a science fiction fan I was not even aware of such a
subgenre
except for the fact that I had just recently finished scanning one.
I didn't
know what it was before I started scanning it or I would not have
done so. A
number of people started making recommendations of authors who
happen to be
Christian. One of them was Zenna Henderson. I have read some of her
stories
and I was never aware of any religious affiliation she might have
and I
never noticed that she used her writing to push religion, so I don't
think
that was what was being asked for. I made a post myself about the
book I had
scanned and said that I didn't like it and I would not recommend it,
but it
sounded like what was being asked for. That book is still in the
approval
queue and should enter the collection soon. The discussion started
morphing
into something about religion in science fiction. Since science is
the study
of reality and since religion is a part of reality religion is just
as good
a topic for a science fiction story as any other part of reality.
However,
these people were talking as if science fiction that pushes religion
is the
most normal thing in the world. Now, I am a long time science
fiction fan
and I was not even aware of such a subgenre and, like I said, it
sounds like
a contradiction in terms. Nevertheless, I had just scanned a book
that seems
to fit that subgenre and it was terrible. I mean that even without
the
religious stuff the writing was awful and it attempts to push
religion sure
didn't help. Since the conversation had turned that way and since I
was a
science fiction fan it seemed to be appropriate for me to offer my
opinion
just like everyone else was doing and so I made my remark about how
it
didn't seem like something that a science fiction fan would be
interested in
because religion is the enemy of science. That was an innocent
remark that
was relevant to the conversation. It was not an attack on religion
out of
the blue. But that was when everyone went ballistic. There were a
few
acrimonious messages on list and fortunately it died down pretty
quickly,
but I also started receiving private hate mail. The hate mail has
not died
down except that one of them did state to me that he did not want to
continue discussion today because I was a bully. That might be the
first
signs of it dying down. Since I did not contact him privately and
since he
contacted me and immediately launched into the vitriol I thought
that was
funny that he thought that I was the one who was the bully and so I
mentioned it here. Anyway, the whole bunch of them are busily
reinforcing my
image of religious types as hateful bullies. It's just like that
other story
I told you about. The one in which I was sitting on a bench minding
my own
business and found myself being asked if I know Jesus. I calmly
replied that
I was an atheist and found myself being chased down the street being
screamed at. That was not a gratuitous attack on religion either. It
was an
answer to a question and I would have found it equally as funny if I
had
been called the bully in that situation. Okay, they have their
identities, I
have my identity too and they have no respect for it. It seems to me
that if
you want respect you have to earn it. You earn it by giving respect.
If
someone refuses to give respect I really don't see how I owe respect
to
them.
On 9/17/2015 9:44 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
I certainly didn't know about the private
emails. But I am curious about
something. What is religious science
fiction? I mean, what were they talking
about?
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Roger
Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for
DMARC)
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2015 9:17 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: What Irony!
I think you misunderstood. You did not read
the exchanges I was talking
about. They were emailing me privately to
bash me over the head with
religion. Anyway, I did not bash religion
gratuitously. What I had to say
was germaine to the discussion. I forget my
exact words now, but it was
something like science fiction is the
fiction that was founded and continues
to promote science and I don't see why a fan
of science fiction would want
to read science fiction that pushes
religion. It was science fiction that
pushes religion that was being talked about
and I joined in on the
conversation. I only made one or two other
posts saying that using science
fiction for pushing religion results in poor
writing.
As for their identities, well, I have an
identity too. If they have no
interest in respecting my identity then I
have no reason to respect theirs.
They need to grow up and understand that
there are other world views than
theirs.
On 9/17/2015 8:40 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Well, I read some of those
interchanges, and then I stopped reading them.
And I am not taking the side of the
proponents of religious science
fiction which, to me, with my lack
of knoledge of science fiction,
does sound like a contradiction in
terms, anyway. But I can explain
why this person, or others,
perceived you as a bully. The reason is
that you gave your opinion of
religion when no one asked for it. No
one was discussing the value or
validity of religion. In fact, most of
them feel that their religious
beliefs are part of their identity. So
when you say something negative
about religion in general, it feels to
them, like a personal attack. And to
add insult to injury, you
expressed a negative opinion about
religion gratuitously. So they felt
attacked by you or bullied by you,
and it seemed to them, to just come out
of the blue.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From:
blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Roger
Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender
"rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2015
8:07 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] What
Irony!
Here's a laugh for you. Recently I
made a comment on the Bookshare
list that I think science fiction
that pushes religion makes for poor
writing.
Actually, I think that any attempt
to use fiction to push religion
results in poor writing, but the
topic was specifically about science
fiction. Well, that caused several
people to start emailing me to bash
me over the head with religion, bash
me over the head and engage in
name calling and insults too. I have
a policy anymore of standing up
to religious bullies even if not on
the same level as they launch
their attacks. I just respond to
them using reason to show them where
they are going wrong. Well, I backed
one of them into a corner today and
he had no response to the logic trap I set
for him.
Wouldn't you know it. He calls me a
bully and breaks off
communication. Take note that I did
not contact him or any of these
people. I only responded to what
they were saying to me, though in a
much more civil manner than they
did. Yet, somehow I am the bully?
