Maybe include? as in,science fiction that includes religion, has a religious
component, or religious slant
I haven’t read the book yet, and I don’t remember what it is called, actually,
I think there are a couple of books by this author, perhaps about the same
characters, was Gilead one of them? Miriam read them, I think, and I remember
her saying something to the effect that although there was definitely a
Christian milieu as a very real part of these novels, she did not feel
smothered by it like it was a pillow held over her nose and mouth…did I get
that right, Miriam?
Anyhow, I think that is very different from something like that odious John
Paul Evans or whoever he is…before I knew who he was, I began reading one of
his books, and I was so infuriated. The fundamentalist Christian air was so
thick, you could have cut it with a knife...
This should make you all laugh…before I knew who Glen Beck was, I read a book,
novel, he had written… again, I was so outraged and nauseated, I looked him up,
and, oh yes, did I ever find out who he is…
As for a “real science fiction fan?” Well, some like their hot dogs with
mustard, some with relish, some with ketchup and some with the works, including
chili and onions…they all would claim to be hot dog aficionados, and of course,
each would claim that the others have it all wrong...
On Sep 18, 2015, at 2:39 PM, Roger Loran Bailey (Redacted sender
"rogerbailey81" for DMARC) <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Well, the matters that were discussed off list would have been extremely off
topic for the list and would have violated list guidelines so taking it off
list was appropriate. As for the phraseology, there is a big difference
between discussing the subject of religion and pushing religion. I suppose I
could have said proselytizing or propagandizing or something else, but I
really have a hard time thinking of a word that conveys the meaning that
would not set off the bible thumpers. And it was clear that that was the kind
of science fiction that the person was looking for. It is not what I would
expect a real science fiction fan to want.
On 9/18/2015 12:28 PM, Alice Dampman Humel wrote:
Roger,
I suspect that the phraseology “pushing religion” and its permutations is
yours, and it might be the obvious pejorative “pushing” that caused the
flareup, although, admittedly, with the religious fundamentalists, it
doesn’t take much…
You yourself recognize one of these writers of religious science fiction to
be good, and perhaps the book you scanned would have been bad writing even
without the religion. In the example of Zenna Henderson, apparently there’s
enough religion in there to satisfy those looking for it, but she was not
crossing the line and “pushing” the religion, so it did not disturb or
offend you.
I do find these people of whatever stripe who go off list with their hate
mail when someone says something they don’t like to be extremely
distasteful…it’s so cowardly and dishonest. If a person has something to
contribute to a public discussion, then he should do so publicly, not hide
behind closed doors and snipe at another person in secret.
On Sep 17, 2015, at 10:20 PM, Roger Loran Bailey (Redacted sender
"rogerbailey81" for DMARC) <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Lana posted a message asking for recommendations of Christian science
fiction. That really sounds like a contradiction in terms to me and as a
science fiction fan I was not even aware of such a subgenre except for the
fact that I had just recently finished scanning one. I didn't know what it
was before I started scanning it or I would not have done so. A number of
people started making recommendations of authors who happen to be
Christian. One of them was Zenna Henderson. I have read some of her stories
and I was never aware of any religious affiliation she might have and I
never noticed that she used her writing to push religion, so I don't think
that was what was being asked for. I made a post myself about the book I
had scanned and said that I didn't like it and I would not recommend it,
but it sounded like what was being asked for. That book is still in the
approval queue and should enter the collection soon. The discussion started
morphing into something about religion in science fiction. Since science is
the study of reality and since religion is a part of reality religion is
just as good a topic for a science fiction story as any other part of
reality. However, these people were talking as if science fiction that
pushes religion is the most normal thing in the world. Now, I am a long
time science fiction fan and I was not even aware of such a subgenre and,
like I said, it sounds like a contradiction in terms. Nevertheless, I had
just scanned a book that seems to fit that subgenre and it was terrible. I
mean that even without the religious stuff the writing was awful and it
attempts to push religion sure didn't help. Since the conversation had
turned that way and since I was a science fiction fan it seemed to be
appropriate for me to offer my opinion just like everyone else was doing
and so I made my remark about how it didn't seem like something that a
science fiction fan would be interested in because religion is the enemy of
science. That was an innocent remark that was relevant to the conversation.
It was not an attack on religion out of the blue. But that was when
everyone went ballistic. There were a few acrimonious messages on list and
fortunately it died down pretty quickly, but I also started receiving
private hate mail. The hate mail has not died down except that one of them
did state to me that he did not want to continue discussion today because I
was a bully. That might be the first signs of it dying down. Since I did
not contact him privately and since he contacted me and immediately
launched into the vitriol I thought that was funny that he thought that I
was the one who was the bully and so I mentioned it here. Anyway, the whole
bunch of them are busily reinforcing my image of religious types as hateful
bullies. It's just like that other story I told you about. The one in which
I was sitting on a bench minding my own business and found myself being
asked if I know Jesus. I calmly replied that I was an atheist and found
myself being chased down the street being screamed at. That was not a
gratuitous attack on religion either. It was an answer to a question and I
would have found it equally as funny if I had been called the bully in that
situation. Okay, they have their identities, I have my identity too and
they have no respect for it. It seems to me that if you want respect you
have to earn it. You earn it by giving respect. If someone refuses to give
respect I really don't see how I owe respect to them.
On 9/17/2015 9:44 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
I certainly didn't know about the private emails. But I am curious about
something. What is religious science fiction? I mean, what were they
talking
about?
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2015 9:17 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: What Irony!
I think you misunderstood. You did not read the exchanges I was talking
about. They were emailing me privately to bash me over the head with
religion. Anyway, I did not bash religion gratuitously. What I had to say
was germaine to the discussion. I forget my exact words now, but it was
something like science fiction is the fiction that was founded and
continues
to promote science and I don't see why a fan of science fiction would want
to read science fiction that pushes religion. It was science fiction that
pushes religion that was being talked about and I joined in on the
conversation. I only made one or two other posts saying that using science
fiction for pushing religion results in poor writing.
As for their identities, well, I have an identity too. If they have no
interest in respecting my identity then I have no reason to respect theirs.
They need to grow up and understand that there are other world views than
theirs.
On 9/17/2015 8:40 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Well, I read some of those interchanges, and then I stopped reading them.of the blue.
And I am not taking the side of the proponents of religious science
fiction which, to me, with my lack of knoledge of science fiction,
does sound like a contradiction in terms, anyway. But I can explain
why this person, or others, perceived you as a bully. The reason is
that you gave your opinion of religion when no one asked for it. No
one was discussing the value or validity of religion. In fact, most of
them feel that their religious beliefs are part of their identity. So
when you say something negative about religion in general, it feels to
them, like a personal attack. And to add insult to injury, you
expressed a negative opinion about religion gratuitously. So they felt
attacked by you or bullied by you, and it seemed to them, to just come out
Miriamwriting.
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2015 8:07 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] What Irony!
Here's a laugh for you. Recently I made a comment on the Bookshare
list that I think science fiction that pushes religion makes for poor
Actually, I think that any attempt to use fiction to push religionhe had no response to the logic trap I set for him.
results in poor writing, but the topic was specifically about science
fiction. Well, that caused several people to start emailing me to bash
me over the head with religion, bash me over the head and engage in
name calling and insults too. I have a policy anymore of standing up
to religious bullies even if not on the same level as they launch
their attacks. I just respond to them using reason to show them where
they are going wrong. Well, I backed one of them into a corner today and
Wouldn't you know it. He calls me a bully and breaks off
communication. Take note that I did not contact him or any of these
people. I only responded to what they were saying to me, though in a
much more civil manner than they did. Yet, somehow I am the bully?
