atw: Re: National Broadband Network issue
- From: Ken Randall <kenneth_james_randall@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: austechwriter@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 01:19:01 -0700 (PDT)
I have to agree that some of the opinions below are a
bit over the top.
b) In a true bastion of free enterprise, national defence would be funded by
voluntary contributions. Do you suppose that the Salvos are as wasteful as the
military?
This is an impractical idea really. Oddly enough, it may
have some merit in that it would prevent warfare.
c) Of course. They are called toll roads. Do you think the government should
provide airline tickets?
No, but airlines are not vital to the operation of the
economy.
d) Education and health are commodities in the same way that washing machines
and fridges are. Would you like the government to provide washing machines and
fridges as well? The Soviets tried that and it didn't work.
At the purely economic level, education and health are both
investments, whereas washing-machines and fridges are
consumer items. Investment is the necessary precursor to
consumption. With lower spending on education and health,
the economy would go downhill.
The economic argument is irrelevant, however, since it is
completely unacceptable for someone to go without
medical treatment because he\she cannot afford it.
By its very definition, the transfer of assets from one individual to another
through force or threat of force is theft. That is PRECISELY what a tax is. If
you are so very happy paying taxes, it follows that you would be equally happy
being mugged so long as the mugger had a "need".
It is not theft since taxation has been sanctioned by Parliament,
for which everyone can vote. Damages awarded by a court is
also theft by this definition.
j) There are in fact very few LEGITIMATE roles for government. The founding
father of federation recognised this.
Do you mean Henry Parkes (if not, who?). Compulsory and
free education existed under his governments (see d).
k) Your parting shot, Geoffrey, is below the belt, but in fact if I do need an
ambulance, it will be funded by my private health insurance.
The ambulance service itself, however, is government-owned.
Why is it below the belt? Health is only a commodity, not
a right (see d).
--- On Wed, 18/8/10, Rod Stuart <rod.stuart@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
From: Rod Stuart <rod.stuart@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: atw: Re: National Broadband Network issue
To: austechwriter@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Received: Wednesday, 18 August, 2010, 4:27 PM
a) I didn't start the thread. Rhonda did. One of the reasons this democracy of
ours will surely fail is because people refuse to debate. We have reached the
stage at which even the politicians running for office refuse to debate.
b) In a true bastion of free enterprise, national defence would be funded by
voluntary contributions. Do you suppose that the Salvos are as wasteful as the
military?
c) Of course. They are called toll roads. Do you think the government should
provide airline tickets?
d) Education and health are commodities in the same way that washing machines
and fridges are. Would you like the government to provide washing machines and
fridges as well? The Soviets tried that and it didn't work.
e) If no profit oriented entrepreneur such as yourself would put money in it,
why would you want somebody to steal you money to put into it?
f) I have absolutely no idea whether the first university was in the West of
the East, but more than likely it was created with voluntary contributions of
one sort or another.
g) What is the connection between education and lands bricks and mortar?
By its very definition, the transfer of assets from one individual to another
through force or threat of force is theft. That is PRECISELY what a tax is. If
you are so very happy paying taxes, it follows that you would be equally happy
being mugged so long as the mugger had a "need".
h) Many of the architectural and artistic wonders of the world have in fact
been "funded" by philanthropists and not thieves.
j) There are in fact very few LEGITIMATE roles for government. The founding
father of federation recognised this.
k) The correct answer to your last demand might well be Ayn Rand.
k) Your parting shot, Geoffrey, is below the belt, but in fact if I do need an
ambulance, it will be funded by my private health insurance.
On 18 August 2010 15:49, Geoffrey Marnell <geoffrey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Rod,
This is rather controversial for a technical writing list, but since you raise
it let me ask you this. Do you think there would ever be an entrepreneur
willing to fund the defence forces? Build roads and bridges? Provide schools
and hospitals accessible by all citizens regardless of wealth? Might it not be
that the NBN policy, for all its warts, has been proposed precisely because no
profit-motivated entrepreneur would put money into it? Did the first university
begin as a profit-driven initiative? Or did the value of education out-strip
the monetary value of the the land, bricks and mortar? Might not the same
argument apply to the NBN?
You can call it socialism if you like, but I'm very happy paying taxes for
initiatives that provide lasting value and aspire to something other than
minimising costs. (On the cost-only model we would have none of the
architectural and artistic wonders of the world. And how emotionally deadening
would that be.) The fact that governments can and do waste money is no reason
not to give money to governments. We need them as much as a meeting needs a
chairperson. And therein lies the contradiction in Margaret Thatcher. She
declares that the homo sapiens is not a social beast but a purely an
individualist assemblage of value-less matter striving for self-pleasure and
then runs for parliament, pouring money into defence and many other natural
monopolies that help the many regardless of their ability to pay. Show me one
neo-liberal who really believes that every function, and I mean every function,
of society can and should be out-sourced to private
enterprise.
I sincerely hope you don't need an ambulance this evening.
Geoffrey Marnell
Principal Consultant
Abelard Consulting Pty Ltd
T: +61 3 9596 3456
F: +61 3 9596 3625
W: www.abelard.com.au
Skype: geoffrey.marnell
From: austechwriter-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:austechwriter-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Rod Stuart
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 3:22 PM
To: austechwriter@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: atw: Re: National Broadband Network issue
If Australia were a bastion of free enterprise capitalism rather than a sort of
socialist quagmire, some entrepreneur no doubt would have conceived of
a fibre-optic network, completed a comprehensive market survey, created a
business plan, written a prospectus, and floated it as an IPO on the stock
exchange.
How many citizens just itching to download movies faster do you suppose would
have been willing to invest the required $10,000 per household in shares?
If this ridiculous proposal put forward as a political gimmick is an
"investment", then it should follow that individuals have the freedom to choose
to invest or not to invest. At some future juncture then individuals would also
have the choice as when to sell.
As Margaret Thatcher is attributed with saying, "Eventually, Socialists run out
of other peoples' money to spend." That day of reckoning is not far away.
Socialism is nothing if it is not a jackboot on the face of humanity.
On 18 August 2010 13:17, WongWord@xxxxxxxxx <wongword@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
In a few years time a govt can privatise the NBN for who knows what ...$430
million?
I agree not everything needs to be privatised at all costs. But what I am
saying is that the current NBN doesn't mean it needs to be a public enterprise
for ever and ever if that is your economic/politcal bent.
But let's give the whole of Australia a fair go. I feel the need and I'm only
on the outskirts of Sydney.
I am originally from Tasmania and let me tell you that if it wasn't for ABC
radio my childhood would have been a far more isolated one. I would never have
been exposed to the information and entertainment what was available by a truly
national broadcaster.
Irene Wong
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Johnson
To: austechwriter@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 11:09 AM
Subject: atw: Re: National Broadband Network issue
Thanks for that Rhonda. I think your email sums it up pretty well. It's about
time we as a society departed from the market "god" concept & "privatisation at
all costs" attitude. There are some things that need a national unified
approach & I think in this instance it is appropriate for government to at
least initiate it. The NBN is an investment, just like education, roads, rail,
public health etc.
On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 08:24, Rhonda Bracey <rhonda.bracey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Hi all
I've never been one discuss politics (or even been interested too much
in the 'issues' surrounding an election). And I have no intention of
starting a discussion about politics here.
However, for many of you who work from home (whether in the city or
not), or who would like to work from home, the National Broadband
Network issue is one that affects you directly.
I blogged about my stance on this critical issue to my ability to work
here:
http://cybertext.wordpress.com/2010/08/13/letter-to-local-member-of-parl
iament-re-the-nbn/ (or http://bit.ly/aewMZq)
The NBN is something I feel very passionate about, and even more so
since having an email discussion yesterday with Helen, a member of
another list I'm on. Helen has moved from Pemberton, WA to a property
about an hour south of Perth. She cannot even get phone, let alone
internet on her new property. As her internet access is severely
limited, I'll quote from an email she wrote to me today when she was
back in Pemberton:
"We are fed up with them, whoever 'they' are. We have had to have
satellite internet here because we are 100m from a hub/rim, in spite of
campaigning to get internet here, which everyone else does have now,
except us. The phone line (180m) was laid and connected on Friday only
for them to 'discover' there is a fault on the town side of the line.
The fault is, just like your cake, there was one 'pair gain' whatever
left for us to have and it has a fault. You can't tell me they didn't
know that, and that is why it was left. So no phone and no internet."
And this is an hour out of a major capital city, not woop-woop.
Some 50+ years ago an Australian government had the vision to lay copper
lines throughout the country to provide us with an (almost) universal
telephone service. Now a government wants to do a similarly large
infrastructure project, this time with materials that should last a
further 50+ years, but the opposition wants to keep us in the dark ages
of a failing copper wire network (and boy, have I had experience of it
failing!), or build thousands more mobile phone towers to provide us
with a slow satellite service.
I'll shut up now.
Rhonda
Rhonda Bracey
rhonda.bracey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.cybertext.com.au
CyberText Newsletter/blog: http://cybertext.wordpress.com
Author-it Certified Consultant
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--
Rod Stuart
6 Brickhill Drive
Dilston, TAS 7252, Australia
<rod.stuart@xxxxxxxxx>
M((040) 184 6575 V(03) 6312 5399
--
Rod Stuart
6 Brickhill Drive
Dilston, TAS 7252, Australia
<rod.stuart@xxxxxxxxx>
M((040) 184 6575 V(03) 6312 5399
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