atw: Re: National Broadband Network issue
- From: "Geoffrey Marnell" <geoffrey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <austechwriter@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 17:12:25 +1000
Rod,
Let's answer your questions in turn.
(a) Rhonda's initial email is irrelevant.
(b) Do you think that Germany's imperial advances into Europe and Russia
would have been stopped by voluntary defence forces (or are you happy for
strong countries to invade weaker countries come what may)?
(c) Would an entrepreneur find it at all valuable to build a road between,
say, Hay and Jerilderie when traffic is scarce but agricultural success
depends on it?
(d) To say that education is a commodity like a fridge overlooks the fact
that our very well-being these days is grounded on pure research (that is,
research not tied to commercial goals). The X-rays you have had in your life
are not commodities. You might pay for them. But Roentgen wasn't paid by
commercial interests to do his research (what has turned out to be
invaluable research). Is a poem a commodity? A piece of music?
(e) I don't think it is stealing my money. I choose to live in society. It
provides me with things I can't provide for myself (pace Thatcher). I'm
happy to pay even more taxes for an even better society. So obviously I
don't think of taxes as theft. If you do, then go and live on a beach
somewhere, forage for yourself, look after your own health or lack of it,
don't expect there to be public toilets for you to use, and so on.
(f) In 1215 the English government granted funds to start Oxford University.
There was a university in Paris before that. I don't know how that started.
But I do know that we would be poorer without the research and brilliance of
Oxford. I teach at Melbourne University and I have witnessed first-hand how,
over the last decade, the cost-only model has screwed research. You may say
that some research is trivial (and some is) but to put all research in the
same basket is to eventually render us a basket case. Research unencumbered
by commercial interests is this planet's only hope.
(g) I'm sorry, but the transfer of assets from one person to another is not,
by definition, theft. Otherwise my wife would be stealing from me when I buy
her a birthday present.
(h) Yes. And many haven't.
(i) [You missed an (i).]
(j) I don't care about what the founding fathers said. I'm more interested
in current argument, logic and values.
(k) Ayn Rand. Crikey. Does anyone, other than Milton Friedman sycophants,
actually take her seriously these days? Alright, let me rephrase the
question: does anyone these days think that every aspect of civilised living
should be out-sourced to private enterprise? Air quality? The road between
Hay and Jerilderie? Reservoirs fro drinking water? Ballet? Opera?
(k again). You might have private ambulance cover, but a part of the cost of
that is borne by the government, as is your subsequent stay in your private
hospital. That is the legacy of John Howard, the Antipodean Thatcher.
No, Rod, debate is not absent from our culture. You've got it in front of
you.
Geoffrey Marnell
Principal Consultant
Abelard Consulting Pty Ltd
T: +61 3 9596 3456
F: +61 3 9596 3625
W: <http://www.abelard.com.au/> www.abelard.com.au
Skype: geoffrey.marnell
_____
From: austechwriter-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:austechwriter-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Rod Stuart
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 4:27 PM
To: austechwriter@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: atw: Re: National Broadband Network issue
a) I didn't start the thread. Rhonda did. One of the reasons this democracy
of ours will surely fail is because people refuse to debate. We have reached
the stage at which even the politicians running for office refuse to debate.
b) In a true bastion of free enterprise, national defence would be funded by
voluntary contributions. Do you suppose that the Salvos are as wasteful as
the military?
c) Of course. They are called toll roads. Do you think the government should
provide airline tickets?
d) Education and health are commodities in the same way that washing
machines and fridges are. Would you like the government to provide washing
machines and fridges as well? The Soviets tried that and it didn't work.
e) If no profit oriented entrepreneur such as yourself would put money in
it, why would you want somebody to steal you money to put into it?
f) I have absolutely no idea whether the first university was in the West of
the East, but more than likely it was created with voluntary contributions
of one sort or another.
g) What is the connection between education and lands bricks and mortar?
By its very definition, the transfer of assets from one individual to
another through force or threat of force is theft. That is PRECISELY what a
tax is. If you are so very happy paying taxes, it follows that you would be
equally happy being mugged so long as the mugger had a "need".
h) Many of the architectural and artistic wonders of the world have in fact
been "funded" by philanthropists and not thieves.
j) There are in fact very few LEGITIMATE roles for government. The founding
father of federation recognised this.
k) The correct answer to your last demand might well be Ayn Rand.
k) Your parting shot, Geoffrey, is below the belt, but in fact if I do need
an ambulance, it will be funded by my private health insurance.
On 18 August 2010 15:49, Geoffrey Marnell <geoffrey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Rod,
This is rather controversial for a technical writing list, but since you
raise it let me ask you this. Do you think there would ever be an
entrepreneur willing to fund the defence forces? Build roads and bridges?
Provide schools and hospitals accessible by all citizens regardless of
wealth? Might it not be that the NBN policy, for all its warts, has been
proposed precisely because no profit-motivated entrepreneur would put money
into it? Did the first university begin as a profit-driven initiative? Or
did the value of education out-strip the monetary value of the the land,
bricks and mortar? Might not the same argument apply to the NBN?
You can call it socialism if you like, but I'm very happy paying taxes for
initiatives that provide lasting value and aspire to something other than
minimising costs. (On the cost-only model we would have none of the
architectural and artistic wonders of the world. And how emotionally
deadening would that be.) The fact that governments can and do waste money
is no reason not to give money to governments. We need them as much as a
meeting needs a chairperson. And therein lies the contradiction in Margaret
Thatcher. She declares that the homo sapiens is not a social beast but a
purely an individualist assemblage of value-less matter striving for
self-pleasure and then runs for parliament, pouring money into defence and
many other natural monopolies that help the many regardless of their ability
to pay. Show me one neo-liberal who really believes that every function, and
I mean every function, of society can and should be out-sourced to private
enterprise.
I sincerely hope you don't need an ambulance this evening.
Geoffrey Marnell
Principal Consultant
Abelard Consulting Pty Ltd
T: +61 3 9596 3456
F: +61 3 9596 3625
W: <http://www.abelard.com.au/> www.abelard.com.au
Skype: geoffrey.marnell
_____
From: austechwriter-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:austechwriter-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Rod Stuart
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 3:22 PM
To: austechwriter@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: atw: Re: National Broadband Network issue
If Australia were a bastion of free enterprise capitalism rather than a sort
of socialist quagmire, some entrepreneur no doubt would have conceived of a
fibre-optic network, completed a comprehensive market survey, created a
business plan, written a prospectus, and floated it as an IPO on the stock
exchange.
How many citizens just itching to download movies faster do you suppose
would have been willing to invest the required $10,000 per household in
shares?
If this ridiculous proposal put forward as a political gimmick is an
"investment", then it should follow that individuals have the freedom to
choose to invest or not to invest. At some future juncture then individuals
would also have the choice as when to sell.
As Margaret Thatcher is attributed with saying, "Eventually, Socialists run
out of other peoples' money to spend." That day of reckoning is not far
away.
Socialism is nothing if it is not a jackboot on the face of humanity.
On 18 August 2010 13:17, WongWord@xxxxxxxxx <wongword@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
In a few years time a govt can privatise the NBN for who knows what ...$430
million?
I agree not everything needs to be privatised at all costs. But what I am
saying is that the current NBN doesn't mean it needs to be a public
enterprise for ever and ever if that is your economic/politcal bent.
But let's give the whole of Australia a fair go. I feel the need and I'm
only on the outskirts of Sydney.
I am originally from Tasmania and let me tell you that if it wasn't for ABC
radio my childhood would have been a far more isolated one. I would never
have been exposed to the information and entertainment what was available by
a truly national broadcaster.
Irene Wong
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Johnson <mailto:peterjohnson.oz@xxxxxxxxx>
To: austechwriter@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 11:09 AM
Subject: atw: Re: National Broadband Network issue
Thanks for that Rhonda. I think your email sums it up pretty well. It's
about time we as a society departed from the market "god" concept &
"privatisation at all costs" attitude. There are some things that need a
national unified approach & I think in this instance it is appropriate for
government to at least initiate it. The NBN is an investment, just like
education, roads, rail, public health etc.
On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 08:24, Rhonda Bracey
<rhonda.bracey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi all
I've never been one discuss politics (or even been interested too much
in the 'issues' surrounding an election). And I have no intention of
starting a discussion about politics here.
However, for many of you who work from home (whether in the city or
not), or who would like to work from home, the National Broadband
Network issue is one that affects you directly.
I blogged about my stance on this critical issue to my ability to work
here:
http://cybertext.wordpress.com/2010/08/13/letter-to-local-member-of-parl
<http://cybertext.wordpress.com/2010/08/13/letter-to-local-member-of-parl%0A
iament-re-the-nbn/>
iament-re-the-nbn/ (or http://bit.ly/aewMZq)
The NBN is something I feel very passionate about, and even more so
since having an email discussion yesterday with Helen, a member of
another list I'm on. Helen has moved from Pemberton, WA to a property
about an hour south of Perth. She cannot even get phone, let alone
internet on her new property. As her internet access is severely
limited, I'll quote from an email she wrote to me today when she was
back in Pemberton:
"We are fed up with them, whoever 'they' are. We have had to have
satellite internet here because we are 100m from a hub/rim, in spite of
campaigning to get internet here, which everyone else does have now,
except us. The phone line (180m) was laid and connected on Friday only
for them to 'discover' there is a fault on the town side of the line.
The fault is, just like your cake, there was one 'pair gain' whatever
left for us to have and it has a fault. You can't tell me they didn't
know that, and that is why it was left. So no phone and no internet."
And this is an hour out of a major capital city, not woop-woop.
Some 50+ years ago an Australian government had the vision to lay copper
lines throughout the country to provide us with an (almost) universal
telephone service. Now a government wants to do a similarly large
infrastructure project, this time with materials that should last a
further 50+ years, but the opposition wants to keep us in the dark ages
of a failing copper wire network (and boy, have I had experience of it
failing!), or build thousands more mobile phone towers to provide us
with a slow satellite service.
I'll shut up now.
Rhonda
Rhonda Bracey
rhonda.bracey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.cybertext.com.au
CyberText Newsletter/blog: http://cybertext.wordpress.com
Author-it Certified Consultant
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--
Rod Stuart
6 Brickhill Drive
Dilston, TAS 7252, Australia
<rod.stuart@xxxxxxxxx>
M((040) 184 6575 V(03) 6312 5399
--
Rod Stuart
6 Brickhill Drive
Dilston, TAS 7252, Australia
<rod.stuart@xxxxxxxxx>
M((040) 184 6575 V(03) 6312 5399
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