Ian If you visit a properly set up and working Puffin the benefits are self explanatory. Perhaps the pedestrians in Derby are better 'behaved' but elsewhere they will find gaps in traffic and run, not always in safety Ian Routledge ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wallis, Ian" <Ian.Wallis@xxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <tcug@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 8:16 AM Subject: [TCUG] Re: Wacky Ideas - Isolated Ped Crossings *** Before reading or acting on this e-mail, or opening any attachment, please read Derby City Council's disclaimer and confidentiality statement at the end of this e-mail *** On this "correctly operating Puffin" where does this gap in traffic come from that is large enough for a pedestrian to cross in safety? Surely if a safe gap exists then the crossing will change. If the Puffin hasn't gapped, then there must still be vehicles being detected ie. vehicles within 30m of the stopline doing maybe 30 mph. It seems to me that except on very few occasions (queuing traffic) that this will always be the case and the crossing will run to it's max or change at the end of the traffic flow. So a properly set up Puffin will be likely to change more often than not so there is no advantage having kerbside detection and the disadvantages of increased installation costs, increased maintenance costs and, at the moment, increased hassle due to unreliable units do not justify any perceived benefits. One of those good ideas dreamt up by someone sitting at a desk rather than with experience of the real world I think. So, we will continue to install our "Puffins" (One-cans?) with no kerbside detection, but with on-crossings which do offer real benefits to both pedestrians and traffic, and where possible they will be pre-timed max. Ian Wallis Derby City Council -----Original Message----- From: Ian Routledge [mailto:ian-routledge@xxxxxxxxxx] Sent: 16 June 2004 10:53 To: tcug@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [TCUG] Re: Wacky Ideas - Isolated Ped Crossings Graham At a correctly operating Puffin the correct sequence of operation should be: 1) confronted with a constant flow of slow moving traffic, pedestrian presses button 2) pedestrian sees gap in traffic 3) pedestrian crosses road 4) sensors detect pedestrian has crossed in the gap and cancels the demand. A well set up Puffin will assist pedestrians and traffic reducing delay for both by cancelling unnecessary pedestrian demands and only giving to pedestrians the time they need - in many situations with lower pedestrian flows and reasonable walking speeds this will result in a reduction of pedestrian crossing time. A badly set up Puffin can increase delay and frustration for drivers and pedestrians and it seems this is what you are describing. Getting a Puffin to work well takes a little effort but the results are well worthwhile as a more and more authorities are confirming. DfT project UG336 is seeking to quantify the potential benefits of Puffins at a number of sites and this information will be issued by DfT as soon as possible, Also any idea what maximum green times are running at this site? Ian Routledge ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Jones" <GWJones@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <tcug@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 10:25 AM Subject: [TCUG] Wacky Ideas - Isolated Ped Crossings Has anyone investigated delays associated with the operation of isolated ped crossings Outside my old Plymouth office there is a newly installed puffin serving relatively few peds, say 1 per minute. Invariably, the practical operation goes something like this. 1) Confronted with a constant flow of slow moving traffic, ped presses button 2) traffic continues to roll 3) peds get very impatient 4) ped sees gap in traffic 5) ped crosses road 6) sensors detect gap in traffic. 7) signals turn red 8) traffic stopped at empty crossing OK this particular crossing is particularly badly programmed, but I know of similar sites which please neither peds nor drivers. Accepting that there are UTC issues, I wonder if stopping traffic on ped demand would not result in a net reduction in overall delay. I have not done my sums but leaving aside pedestrian delay, it seems a choice between delaying a few free flowing vehicles or more slow moving ones, which soon make up the lost ground. Anyone done any work on this. Graham Jones Traffic Analyst - Somerset County Council Tel 01823 358235 This communication is intended solely for the person (s) or organisation to whom it is addressed. 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