Ok Mark, now you and I are probably aware of pedestrians and what may happen, as are the other members of this freelist, but do you seriously believe that the average motorist is even aware of pedestrians, other than to put their foot down a little just in case they do press the button? I've heard arguments that wait indicators should be hidden from the view of approaching drivers in case they see the demands and still try to beat the signals. I don't agree. I insist they are square on to waiting peds and would suggest that drivers who do see it, may be more prepared for the lights to change. It would be lovely to think that drivers are aware of such things in general and ready to adapt to developing situations, but I think the general agreement is that there is more arrogance in drivers these days and if they can get away with not stopping or slowing, they will. Yes, I know that's a bit of a blanket statement. Incidently, when pandering to idiots etc., who is the first health & safety officer who will try to write a procedure for driving a ton of steel safely? Someone once tried it with the Highway Code but this tends to be thrown out of the window after test day. The typical morons being those who: 1 - Drive around with their fog lights on when it is not foggy - to look cool, 2 - As signals change to green, they suddenly activate their RT indicator removing any possibility of you planning for their actions and have to remain behind them until they can complete their turn, 3 - When driving behind someone, their hazard flashers suddenly appear... What's happened? Has their engine suddenly failed? Has a wheel fallen of? No, they are about to come to a normal halt at the side of the road! 4 - Parking on the offside of the road facing oncoming drivers with their headlights on at night causing dazzle, 5 - Turning right at roundabouts by using the left hand lane from entrance to exit - half the time without indicating, 6 - Changing lanes without indicating restricting your forward planning, 7 - Smoking with kids in the car. By the way, is smoking any less distracting than using a mobile? 8 - Throwing rubbish from their cars. 9 - turning right or left onto a main road and stopping at the secondary to main road traffic. Is it about time we started to tackle these issues, many of which simply relate to bad driving? Sorry Mark, this is a very large soap box of mine! I think it's time to retest many of these idiots and suspend their driving licenses until they pass. But, in this country and mostly thanks to HSE, we are gradually removing responsibility from the individual and passing the buck to people who can afford to be sued. If you fall down a whole in France and have the guts to tell someone, you will probably be laughed at for not using your eyes. Over here, there must be someone else to blame! As Jeremy Clarkson pointed out, the government stopped the unions ruining the country in the early 80's but now it's being ruined by pathetically stupid health and safety legislation being mostly drawn up by idiots. Right, I'm now go and write my resignation before I'm sacked! Feel better now! Peter Jones Project Leader - Traffic Control Systems Phone: +44 (0) 151 934 4254 Fax: +44 (0) 151 922 4514 Mobile: 07788 100 584 Peter.Jones (AT) technical.sefton.gov.uk Sefton MBC - UTC 7th Floor Balliol House Balliol Road Bootle L20 3NJ Please see our web pages on traffic control in Sefton: http://www.sefton.gov.uk/content-2781 ----------------------------------------------------------- A message from the TCUG mailing list. For information about the list visit //www.freelists.org/webpage/tcug