[pure-silver] Re: Selenium followed by T-8 Polysulfide
- From: "Richard Knoppow" <dickburk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <pure-silver@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:29:38 -0800
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lloyd Erlick" <lloyd@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <pure-silver@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 6:45 AM
Subject: [pure-silver] Re: Selenium followed by T-8
Polysulfide
> At 10:51 PM 12/15/2004 , you wrote:
>>
>>My goal is to produce prints that look very much like my
>>regular
>>selenium toned prints but which are more stable. Normally,
>>I tone Ilford
>>FB paper for 5 minutes in KRST toner diluted 1 + 9 for 5
>>minutes at
>>70F. Would following up with T-8 polysulfide brown toner
>>be a decent
>>idea for improved stability? My thought is that I'd get
>>the benefits of
>>my regular selenium toning, namely some image protection,
>>a hue change,
>>and a dmax increase, and some protection against hue shift
>>with the T-8
>>toner, and the T-8 toner would protect the parts of the
>>image that
>>weren't completely selenium toned. Does anyone have any
>>thoughts on the
>>matter?
>>
>>-Peter De Smidt
>>=====================
>
>
>
> dec1604 from Lloyd Erlick,
>
> I've done exactly the same thing for the same reasons.
>
> I tried all four of the possibilities: selenium alone,
> polysulfide (T8)
> alone, and each before and after the other.
>
> Selenium is my preference in terms of final appearance of
> the print. I find
> the result from T8 too "light brown" or perhaps too much
> in the direction
> of yellow. When I toned in selenium, then in T8, the
> result was very
> slightly less deep, less golden, less brown, and a bit in
> the direction of
> the T8 color. Conversely, T8 first followed by Selenium
> yielded a mostly T8
> appearance that was modified toward the darker, richer
> color of selenium.
>
> I was looking for a concentration of polysulfide that did
> not affect print
> color (in other words, I wanted to find the smallest
> amount of sulfide I
> could use). Also, I wanted to find out if I could find a
> small enough
> amount of sulfide that the hydrogen sulfide odor stopped
> being evident.
>
> My last attempt, which I considered successful, was a
> small amount of
> sulfide dissolved in my working solution of selenium
> toner. I did find a
> small enough amount that the odor stopped bothering me,
> and that amount did
> not have a large effect on the final print tone compared
> to the selenium.
>
> The problem (for me, and anyone who wants to take my word
> for it ...) is
> that I don't have scientifically rigorous data on volumes
> and weights of
> the substances involved. I also do not have scientific
> data on the final
> appearances of my prints, so it's all anecdotal and
> personal perception
> (and you will have to take into account my own less than
> perfect color
> perception!)
>
> However, I can tell you that it will be possible to
> achieve what you are
> after. My look into it was based on using Ilford Warmtone
> FB paper (MGW),
> and Kodak selenium toner (KRST), diluted in distilled
> water 1+5. My usual
> toning time is ten minutes at 32-34C. When I finally
> started putting the
> potassium polysulfide in the selenium, I was using small
> fractions of a
> gram for my three liter mix.
>
> My motivation for all this was the report a few years ago
> about the print
> lifespan-enhancing qualities of KRST. It was claimed (I
> believe this came
> from the IPI, Image Permanence Institute, but I'm subject
> to correction
> here) that a change in the manufacturing setup of KRST had
> changed the
> actual substances in the jug at the user end. It came out
> that the newer
> version of KRST was less effective at lifespan
> enhancement, and suggestions
> were made that the new version was a higher purity
> product, and that
> certain impurities had been eliminated, and that one of
> those impurities
> was a sulfide. Hence the look at sulfides as print toners
> for longevity of
> the print. Reports were that very small amounts of sulfide
> sufficed. So it
> seemed logical to dissolve a small amount of sulfide in
> the KRST working
> solution, but hopefully not enough to noticeably change
> the final
> appearance of the selenium toned print.
>
> I can provide no details as to the success of print
> lifespan improvement by
> this method. I don't have accelerated test facilities, and
> my prints are
> not old enough to tell, and anyway most of my prints are
> toned in the old
> sulfide-impurity 'version' of KRST. I hope this helps, and
> if there are
> ever any reportable hard data I'd be fascinated...
>
> regards,
> --le
> ________________________________
> Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
> voice: 416-686-0326
> email: portrait@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> net: www.heylloyd.com
> ________________________________
> --
In their report to the NIH the IPI has an analysis of
polysulfide toners. It is pointed out that the concentration
of the stock solution is important. If not concentrated
enough the toning, and therefore protection, is not uniform.
T-8 is sufficiently concentrated according to personal
communication from Dr. Nishimura but I don't know if further
reduction of the amount of polysulfide would be. I don't
fully understand the chemistry here.
If you want an alternative toner for less yellow color
you might try Nelson's Gold. This is a sulfide toner with a
Gold chloride tone modifier that shifts the tone toward red.
It produces uniform partial toning. In one edition of the
_Kodak Reference Handbook_ it is stated that the resulting
images are not as permanent as other sulfide toned images
but this same edition also leaves out the final fixing step.
AFAIK, there is no reason that Nelson's should not protect
images as well as other sulfiding toners.
I don't know if it is possible to combine a gold tone
modifier with KBT, perhaps Ryuji can comment on this. Gold
toner used after sulfide toning will produce a red color but
the effect is somewhat different when its combined with the
toner.
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
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