[mso] Re: Alphabetizing table of contents- how??
- From: Robert Carneal USA <carnealre@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: mso@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:28:21 -0600
-COPY-
Unless I am doing Robert a disservice, I don't get the impression he
has been producing his works in the same was a professional publisher
would. (Robert pls forgive me if I'm wrong here, it's an observation
based on some of the questions you have asked over the course of time.)
-End-
You are right. I am not producing something the way a publisher
would. I received the genealogical works of an cousin, based on the
premises that I:
1. Produce a new family history / genealogy book and update it to
include the new members,
2. Include any deaths since last publication,
3. Follow the exact format *I* have followed, do not deviate!!!
4. Include more photos,
5. Provide a free copy of the book to everyone who helps me update the book.
6. Keep it easy to read!!
That is why I sometimes already know in advance how I would
accomplish something, but to keep my agreement, I have to do it her
way as I promised. Does that help?
Thanks.
Robert
At 2009-01-13 01:05 PM, you wrote:
>LOL I was using the term "we" in the sense of lay people. James Huggins is
>right in his definitions of ToC and Index but I suppose conversationally
>unless we are particular and accurate in the terminology we choose it can
>cause confusion and obfuscation when it's picked up by others who do know
>what the terms mean properly.
>It's probably true that many computer users who have learnt the basics of
>desktop publishing etc don't always learn the terminology, they may know
>what they want to achieve in final outcome but it may not translate into
>terms the rest of us understand when we offer the much needed help and
>guidance! Unless I am doing Robert a disservice, I don't get the impression
>he has been producing his works in the same was a professional publisher
>would. (Robert pls forgive me if I'm wrong here, it's an observation based
>on some of the questions you have asked over the course of time.)
>
>I come at this from the standpoint of having been trained as a
>secretary/typist etc 35 yrs ago when systems, style books etc were very
>rigid and formulaic. As years have gone by computers have made many things
>more accessible and DTP has probably been one of the most revolutionary.
>Equally my father was creating audiovisual presentations in the days of
>slide shows and music on reel-to-reel tape machines, then we got Powerpoint
>- which is where I will rest my case!
>
>To misquote Star Trek It's been progress, Jim, but maybe not as we know it!
>;)
>
>2009/1/9 David Smart <smartware@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> > Microsoft didn't begin this differentiation. I was used to it in systems
> > that predated the Microsoft offerings.
> >
> > > In the UK we often use "table of contents" and "index"
> > > interchangeably, ...
> >
> > Is this true among publishing professionals, or just among lay-people? I
> > imagine that the general public world-wide don't tend to differentiate, but
> > I've (in Australia) used the terms quite specifically with regard to
> > technical publications from long before personal computers came along.
> >
> > > Ultimately a book is just a very long essay
> >
> > ... in the same way that the Mona Lisa is just a sketch, and Everest is
> > just
> > a hill. :-)
> >
> > My take on essay vs book is that an essay is a relatively informal and
> > relatively unstructured work. A book is a structured and formal work. For
> > instance, books have chapters and essays don't. (All rules, of course, are
> > made to be broken.) If an essay needs a table of contents, then it is
> > probably no longer an essay.
> >
> > For example, I would not call a 700-page doctoral thesis an essay. In
> > fact,
> > if I named it as such in its author's presence, I would certainly not be
> > popular. But the 20 pagers they had submitted during their structured
> > courses would be called essays by all.
> >
> > I don't think we need to blame Microsoft for this. There's enough other
> > stuff to blame them for. :-)
> >
> >
> > Regards, Dave S
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Anne Robson" <anne.robson@xxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <mso@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 8:07 AM
> > Subject: [mso] Re: Alphabetizing table of contents- how??
> >
> >
> > >I think some of the confusion has arisen because of the differences
> > between
> > > UK English and US English added to the terms that Microsoft use to
> > > describe
> > > certain features. In the UK we often use "table of contents" and "index"
> > > interchangeably, whereas Microsoft assigns specific uses to them. And as
> > > it's a "one size fits all" solution for all types of application we have
> > > legal terms, word processing terms, desktop publishing terms etc etc and
> > > heaven help us if we don't know which is the right term for what we
> > > intrinsically know we want to do!
> > > It often comes down to which starting point we came to Office from as to
> > > how
> > > we learn it. I was a trained secretary originally and it pains me at
> > > times
> > > to see things over complicated by folk who are computer people first and
> > > foremost! Ultimately a book is just a very long essay In the old days we
> > > would have typed it out manually, numbered it manually and indexed it
> > > manually. Now we make a whole process out of what should be a quicker
> > > job.
> > > There is often a simpler solution than what we use. the trick is to find
> > > the simpler one at the outset!
> > >
> > > :)
> > > 2009/1/7 James S. Huggins (mso) <MicrosoftOffice@xxxxxxxxx>
> > >
> > >>
> > >> ===========================
> > >> I've hesitated about coming in on this one as I didn't want to throw a
> > >> cat
> > >> among the pigeons. But my route would have been not to start in Word at
> > >> all, but create the info in Excel and then sort on my chosen fields
> > >> before
> > >> doing a Word mailmerge to a catalog using the Excel file as my data
> > >> source.
> > >> I've done this for years with a lot of success, so long as the field
> > >> lengths
> > >> don't exceed Excel's capacity (if I recall in 2000 they may have been
> > >> more
> > >> limited than more recent versions). It's a really good way to handle
> > >> lots
> > >> of data, including text (Excel is really good at handling text not just
> > >> numbers!) and getting a professional version at the end of it. You can
> > >> then
> > >> set the item you want to create your index on each page with an index
> > >> mark
> > >> or link to a paragraph style that achieves the same result.
> > >> And just to mix the metaphors, this may be a total red herring!
> > >> ===========================
> > >>
> > >> Not a red herring at all. A good idea. "Database publishing" which is
> > >> what
> > >> you are describing, creates printed material out of a database, in your
> > >> case, the Excel spreadsheet functioning as a simple database. It's a
> > >> perfectly acceptable approach.
> > >>
> > >> For me, the subject of this whole discussion threw me from the
> > beginning.
> > >> Why? Because Tables of Contents are "by definition" not alphabetized.
> > >> They
> > >> do "by definition" appear in "page order". Indexes are "by definition"
> > >> alphabetized.
> > >>
> > >> To me, the need for an alphabetized table of contents shows the need for
> > >> an
> > >> alphabetized book. You would not, for example, create a dictionary with
> > >> words in random order, then provide an alphabetical index to find the
> > >> words.
> > >> Just put the information in the most natural order to begin with.
> > >>
> > >> At least, that is how it seems to me.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> James S. Huggins
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
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