Re: [MoAccess] Motif ES USB not working
- From: "D!J!X!" <megamansuperior@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 17:10:53 -0400
WOW! thank you for that enlightenment!!! I guess it is time to dig up the
cash to buy editors for the es! Yea, I actually have noticed how to make
some of those sounds on the es just never was able to do it or get it from
idea to concept, maybe I need to go watch that video again and relook in
the manual lol...actually now that you mention it, away with that idea of
the plugin cards, if they are such a mess...I might just get the mlan, I
heard it does work with acio and or wdm can't remember which, but i'm not
sure. I just don't want to keep having to record track by track of the
songs I make. I've made 3 or 4 beats already using just the motif, with
factory voices, no tweaking etc. I don't have such a good card, (us122) by
the time I record each of those tracks to audio tracks, man! I would also
like to use the motif effects with some of my projects, so I think MLan is
the way to go...
_____
Thanks, D!J!X!
From: moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Bryan Smart
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 4:48 PM
To: MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [MoAccess] Motif ES USB not working
I don't think that Yamaha left those sounds out of the Motif just so you'd
buy the DX card. You can play the DX card live, but it is a pain to sequence
with it. The PLG cards were always a very sloppy type of add on to the
Motif.
You're right, there aren't too many DX7 rhodes type voices on the ES. The XS
has some very nice ones, but there aren't too many of them. Honestly, I
heard so many of those in the 80's, that if I ever use one now, the track
feels too retro.
Something to keep in mind, though, is that most of the Motif sounds are
meant to be modified. Most of the real instrument voices are very practical
(mega clean guitar, after 1983 rhodes, la piano, etc). These are basic
starting places where you can tweak a bit and make your own voice. Roland
and Kurzweil are bad about making specialty voices that are too extreme in
any direction to be easily modifiable. The Motif voices are designed to be
general purpose voices that can be either used by themselves, or used as
starting points to create other voices. The XS, for example, has a voice
that is pretty much a basic DX7 rhodes with almost no effects. The sound has
several layers to it, and is very expressive, but isn't mixed like you might
remember it in your favorite hit song. What you're supposed to do is to take
this basic voice and edit it to get the sound that you want. For example,
pan the elements out and put slow stereo chorus on it, and you have a
Chicago sounding keyboard voice. Put deep chorusing and heavy compression on
it, and you sound like a Keith Sweat kind of slow jam voice. When ever I had
an idea for a guitar voice, on the ES, I'd start with the Mega Clean guitar
voice, since it already had all of the layering/expressive programming
setup, but was dry and basic in almost every other way. Then, I'd tweak
effects, change the way the controllers were able to adjust the sound, and
save that as a user voice.
The Motif has good presets. A person that is just concerned with the
composition side of song writing will just be satisfied to dial up a DX
rhodes voice. However, if you're at the stage where you have ideas about how
you want a sound to be different, then you need to get into editing. Editing
doesn't mean starting from absolute scratch. In fact, I avoid starting from
absolute scratch, unless I have no other choice. Starting from scratch takes
a lot of work. Where we are with the Motif is that just about every aspect
of the voice is adjustable. Yamaha starts with basic recordings of strings
being plucked, tines being struck, basic synthesizer waveforms cycling, and
uses the synth engine to shape them into voices that you play. We aren't
living back in the 80's where using a sampler meant that you were playing a
recording of an instrument that was prerecorded with effects, a static
envelope, etc.
Here is an example. When people start wanting to edit voices on a keyboard,
they're pushed to that because they don't like the tone quality, or they
don't like the effects that are used on a voice. For example, for a rhodes,
you might think that the rhodes sound is too full (like it should be playing
solo instead of in an ensemble), or else you don't like the fact that it is
all chorus up like a dyno rhodes, when you'd rather it be panning back and
forth like in an R&B ballad. When people get to the point that they care
about such things, they flip through the presets, and get annoyed that there
are only a few rhodes sounds that have autopanner, or only a few of them are
thin enough to sit well in a mix. The thing is, what you hear in the Motif,
for the most part, are examples of what you could create, not the full list
of what is possible.
When it comes to the tone of a sound, you could take any of the rhodes
sounds, or any of the DX pianos, for example, and adjust the tone in many
ways. Every voice is processed through a dedicated three band equalizer. The
middle band is even parametric. Even when you're in song or pattern mode,
and are using 16 voices all at once, each of your voices can still use its
equalizer. As a basic example, you can switch to a preset voice in voice
mode, use the knobs to eq it differently, and then save that as a user
voice. It doesn't matter that you only changed the tone of the voice. That
is still a custom voice that you made. It is how you like the voice to
sound. If using the voice's three band eq isn't enough to get the tone the
way that you want, each of the 8 elements (or oscillators) that make up a
voice has its own eq. SO, if you have a voice that is a combination of piano
and strings, you can eq just the piano, and then save the voice. If that
isn't enough, each of the elements also has a filter. Most inexperienced
users will just think of the default kind of low pass filter, the type that
dulls the sound as you close it, but the Motif has many different types of
filters that you can use to shape the tone of the voice.
When it comes to the effects of a sound, the Motif has lots of options. The
ES has a boat load of effects, and the XS has even higher quality modeled
effects. Each voice can use two effects processors at once. A lot of what
goes into making a sound in a pop song is the effects processing. Most
people know about effects like reverb and chorus, but if you care about the
particulars of how a voice sounds, then you should study how the other
effects work, like compression, phasers, flangers, and the more complex
types of reverb (gated, early reflections, plate/spring reverb types, etc).
For example, if you've ever heard a DX7 rhodes sound, from a real DX7, with
out effects, you'd know that it is horrible. It sounds like a cheesy toy. On
all of those songs that you remember from the 80's, the mix engineers would
need to figure out something creative to do with the DX7 to make it sound
better. Since its sound was so thin, chorusing helped the tone sound a lot
less like sine waves, and compression helped reduce the problem of how the
softly played notes were nearly impossible to hear. Every mix engineer,
though, had their own effects units and settings for chorus and compression,
and that is why there is such a wide variety of tones that ended up on pop
and R&B records. In the late 80's and early 90's, when digital sampling
keyboards were starting to get affordable, they'd have programs in them that
made DX7 rhodes type sounds, but those programs used recordings of a DX7
that were already processed up with effects to have that chorused sound that
we'd all heard from the radio. That sucked, because that one tone was the
only tone that you could get from the keyboard. If you wanted a different
type of tone on those keyboards, you need to switch patches, buy some sample
upgrades (if the keyboard even supported it), or buy another keyboard. The
Motif isn't like that. The Motif has samples of an unprocessed DX7 rhodes in
it. The preset voices on the Motif put those unprocessed sounds through the
equalizers and effects on the Motif in order to make the voices that you
hear. The Motif will never sound 100% like a DX7 rhodes, but I don't think
that lots of people grasp how much it is possible to change the way that the
presets sound. Hopefully, more of you will be inspired and driven enough to
dig into the voice settings once the editors come out.
OK. Enough writing for now. Got to get back to real work.
Bryan
_____
From: moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of D!J!X!
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 3:36 PM
To: MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [MoAccess] Motif ES USB not working
Hey bryan, I honestly think that the electric piano sounds on the es are
lacking, I mean the rhodes and worlitzer sound good, but there's lack of
those galaxy EP and tines and the stuff used in slow ballads. Isn't this
dx7 card suppose to have lots of these? I heard yamaha left those kinds of
pianos out of the motif just so that you could get that card because it's
suppose to have tons of those kind of pianos, is this true? I was gonna get
one of these and a vl board and possibly a xg or the synth modeling 1, but
idk with all the software synths i have don't think i needed. I have lots
of xg compatible midis though...
Regards, D!J!X!
_____
From: moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Bryan Smart
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 10:16 AM
To: MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [MoAccess] Motif ES USB not working
Rod, the cards sell for between $120 and $300, depending on their function.
Most of them are worthless, in my opinion. They were designed for Yamaha
synths in the 90's, and so are technically way behind the times in many
ways. Yamaha made them work on the Motif and Motif ES because they already
had a full product line of these PLG cards, so they could easily add them on
as a Motif feature. The cards have some technical problems, though, and they
had to be left out of the design for the XS so that that workstation could
move forward in other areas.
Having said that, though, there are a few good PLG cards.
The VL board uses physical modeling to immitate wind and some other solo
instruments. While the instruments don't always sound 100% like their real
world version, they are extremely expressive. They are many more times
expressive than what is even possible on the XS. However, you can only play
one of these at a time, so you can't for example, use one of these cards to
play a sax section in a Motif song, for example. It is good for playing
live, though.
The DX card emulates a Yamaha DX7. If you're really set on getting a super
authentic DX7 rhodes sound, FM style bass, etc, then this is a good card.
However, it, also, can only play a single part at once.
There is an AN PLG card. This is a modeled analog synthesizer. It produces
much better analog synth sounds than is possible with the motif. However, it
plays only one part, and you can't fully edit the sounds.
Last, I like the VH board, which is a vocal harmonizer. It isn't the best
one that I've ever heard, but it is better than most of the cheap stuff that
people have. It isn't noisy, and it integrates easily with the Motif. It
will track chords in a Motif song, and automatically produce 3 part backing
vocals for you as you sing into the mic. It also has a mode where you can
play the actual notes that you'd like the backing voices to sing. The card
is accessible (I wrote up lots of notes about it in the ES Accessible
Reference).
The others aren't so awesome. There are two different piano PLG cards, a
percussion card, a card that works like an XG-compatible synth module, and a
few others. Like I said, I don't like most of them.
Hope this helps.
Bryan
_____
From: moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Rod Alcidonis
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 12:22 AM
To: MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [MoAccess] Motif ES USB not working
Bryan:
Thanks a lot man.
I don't know if it worth the investment to purchase these cards -- would you
recommend them?
Which ones, please?
How much are they going for approximately?
Really appreciative of your help.
Take care.
Rod Alcidonis
Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009.
Roger Williams University School of Law
10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003
Bristol, RI 02809
Cell: 718-704-4651
Home: 01-824-8685
Roddj12@xxxxxxxxxxx
----- Original Message -----
From: Bryan Smart <mailto:bryansmart@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 9:45 PM
Subject: Re: [MoAccess] Motif ES USB not working
Rod, you get more channels for accessing the Motif. You don't get more
channels in general.
For example, if you had the XG plg card a vl card, and an an card installed,
then you'd get 16 channels for the main tone generator, 16 for the xg card,
and 1 each for the plg cards. If you don't use plg cards, though, the extra
ports/channels aren't useful.
Also, you can not use the Motif as a control surface over the basic MIDI
ports with a MIDI interface like the Midisport.
So, using USB on the Motif is a good thing.
Bryan
_____
From: moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Rod Alcidonis
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 7:08 PM
To: MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [MoAccess] Motif ES USB not working
Hi, Bryan:
Thanks for the excellent tips. I was not aware of the different functions
for each port.
I was told that the USB connection should have afforded me with more midi
channels as oppose to using my midisport16 channels ; Then that can't be
right if I am only using port 1, though. I can only play on 16 channels on
port 1. I don't use the motif es as a controller yet -- need to learn how
to do so first. So, port 2 I will have to disable it. The only two ports I
will need are 1 and 3, port 3 for my drum machine. This still would leave me
with the same amount of channels I had using my midisport, though.
Rod Alcidonis
Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009.
Roger Williams University School of Law
10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003
Bristol, RI 02809
Cell: 718-704-4651
Home: 01-824-8685
Roddj12@xxxxxxxxxxx
----- Original Message -----
From: Bryan Smart <mailto:bryansmart@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 6:51 PM
Subject: Re: [MoAccess] Motif ES USB not working
Rod, you don't want all ports enabled. This could possibly be your problem.
Motif port 1 is used for the keyboard, controllers, and for allowing Sonar
to play sounds on the Motif. This is the port that you'd get if you hooked
up the Motif to the computer using a MIDI interface and the basic MIDI
in/out jacks on the back of the Motif.
Port 2 is used by the Motif when its working in control surface mode.
Port 3 allows you to access another MIDI keyboard or module that is
connected to the MIDI in and out jacks on the back of the Motif. So, in
addition to being able to use the Motif as a MIDI device when it is
connected to the computer over either USB or man, you can also use the Motif
as a single port MIDI interface for another device.
On the Motif classic and ES, I think that ports 4, 5, and 6 let you have
direct access to the PLG cards. In this way, it is like each of the PLG
cards are their own separate MIDI module.
In Sonar, you should only enable the ports that you need. For example, you'd
never need input from anything other than ports 1 and 2. If you don't have
PLG cards, and don't chain MIDI devices off of the Motif, then only enable
ports 1 and 2 for output.
Also, you should always use an audio metronome. Using a MIDI metronome is
the old school way of working. It requires that you give up one of your 16
MIDI channels to serve as the metronome. That isn't a good idea.
Bryan
_____
From: moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Damon Fibraio
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 5:28 PM
To: MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [MoAccess] Motif ES USB not working
Rod, to my knowledge, no. You should be able to just send. On all channels
in a port. Maybe try reinstalling the driver, or do a reset on the motif?
--
Damon Fibraio
screen names -- aol: dfibraio...msn dfibraio@xxxxxxxxxxxx skype: dfibraio
web sites: personal music site: http://www.keyboardguy.com. band:
http://www.queenoftheryche.com. Internet Radio station:
http://www.nhbradio.com
Internet radio show every Wednesday night from 8 to 11 pm eastern
From: moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Rod Alcidonis
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 1:21 PM
To: MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [MoAccess] Motif ES USB not working
Damon:
Thanks for the info. I have done all that, though. I am quite shock as to
why only one port is working when I have done the same for all of the other
ports. That's why I hate configuring these things after a fresh install.
May I possibly have to mess with some menus to tell the keyboard to send on
all ports? Anyone know how to do that please if this may be the case?
Rod Alcidonis
Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009.
Roger Williams University School of Law
10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003
Bristol, RI 02809
Cell: 718-704-4651
Home: 01-824-8685
Roddj12@xxxxxxxxxxx
----- Original Message -----
From: Damon <mailto:dfibraio@xxxxxxxxxxx> Fibraio
To: MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: [MoAccess] Motif ES USB not working
OK, did you select the motif as in and out? You have to assign the midi
instrument definition to the midi port, too. Also, make sure your midi
channels are correct and put the motif into song or pattern mode.
--
Damon Fibraio
screen names -- aol: dfibraio...msn dfibraio@xxxxxxxxxxxx skype: dfibraio
web sites: personal music site: http://www.keyboardguy.com. band:
http://www.queenoftheryche.com. Internet Radio station:
http://www.nhbradio.com
Internet radio show every Wednesday night from 8 to 11 pm eastern
From: moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:moaccess-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Rod Alcidonis
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 12:07 PM
To: MoAccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [MoAccess] Motif ES USB not working
Hello guys:
I have downloaded the USB driver for the motif es, installed it, but I am
getting no sound. I have also followed the instructions to activate the USB
on the Motif es, but to no avail.
The Midi activity is being shown on my taskbar.
I have also installed and configured my Instrument definition for the Motif
es.
I noticed that in the midi devices dialog box, there is only one option to
select the motif es8. As for input, it appears that it only goes to motif
1-4. Could it be that I am not receiving input sound? I was under the
assumption that by selecting the motif es only, as the only option given, it
would work for both input and output.
Please help; I desperately want to get this fix!
Thanks.
Rod Alcidonis
Juris Doctor Candidate, 2009.
Roger Williams University School of Law
10 Metacom Ave., Box: 9003
Bristol, RI 02809
Cell: 718-704-4651
Home: 01-824-8685
Roddj12@xxxxxxxxxxx
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