Lawrence Helm wrote: "They [i.e. Lawrence's pacifist friends] ended up as ambivalent as the people here." Phil: That you thought this doesn't surprise me. You tell people what they believe and then, surprise, surprise, tell them that these beliefs are illogical, or ambivalent. There is nothing 'ambivalent' with the pacifist position that nation states are compelled to defend themselves and that a citizen of a state may believe that their participation in war is morally wrong. Furthermore, there is nothing 'ambivalent' in the belief that taking up arms is wrong and that one may find oneself in the position of having to defend one's family. Lawrence: Gosh, Phil, that sounds like a perfect example of ambivalence to me. Lawrence again: "Catholics are not pacifistic." Phil: A claim which shows how much you know about the state of contemporary Christianity. See the recent statement by U.S. Catholic bishops on war. Your 'knowledge' of Christianity is terribly parochial. Lawrence: I spent some time going through that document the last time we had this conversation. You had your favorite document, but there were others. I have a headache and don't really want to do this again. Is any of this coming back to you. I got out Elshtain on Just War against Terror. Maybe you could get Simon to go on a wild goose chase and dig all that stuff out again. A group of Catholics can be pacifistic, but the bulk of Catholics are not. Surely you know that, Phil. Human nature equips us to defend ourselves. We have to be talked into pacifism and then when our pacifism is put to a serious test, it fails. Lawrence