[lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe
- From: "Simon Ward" <sedward@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 12:26:43 -0000
I'd say Lawrence is looking at the wrong reasons. The Balkans (notice the
plural) were previously organised as Yugoslavia, despite there being a number
of historically seperate states. Iraq, after the first world war, was created
from three different tribal units. It's not that they're Islamic so much that
both were artifically created and controlled generally with dictatorial powers
that kept the underlying tensions bottled up.
Simon
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Helm
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 6:20 AM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe
My point had to do with current events. We see the effects of European
nations that have been under Islamic rule. We look at the Balkans and think
they are the most backward part of Europe. Why, we ask? They were under
Islamic rule for 500 years and share some of the characteristics of a modern
Islamic state, Andre Gerolymatos tells us in The Balkan Wars. Why, that's very
interesting, think I. I'll pass that along to my friends on Lit-Ideas.
Perhaps they will find that as interesting as I do.
And if, think I further, the Balkans with the benefit of being out from under
Ottoman rule for more than 100 years have difficulty behaving like civilized
Europeans, what chance does Turkey have (who used to be the Ottoman Empire)?
And what chance does Iraq have of achieving even limited Democracy? No doubt
there are some Iraqi intellectuals who know these matters very well, but it
seems an insurmountable task in this modern world as it seems always to have
been to educate a society to such a degree that it will make the wisest
decisions. It would be wise, we think, for Iraq to become a viable democracy.
Malaki seems to think so too, but the less insightful Arab in the street just
wants us out of there - as does the less insightful American in some of our
streets over here.
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Andreas Ramos
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 9:30 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe
From: "Lawrence Helm" <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> "Over the course of the nineteenth century, one
> Christian people after another in southeastern Europe threw off the shackles
> of Ottoman rule without then being absorbed by a Great Power.
Back up a few hundred years and ask the same question. After the Roman
empire, Europe went
into decline from 600 AD to 1400 AD. In the same period, Arab world went
through a long
period of significant achievements in the sciences, medicine, astronomy, and
mathematics.
They were also important in philosophy, literature, and architecture.
Lawrence probably thinks I'm being unamerican for not praising the medieval
Saxons.
My point is that civilizations rise and fall. The Arab world did very well
for a while, and
the modern Western world has been doing well for a while.
However, one won't know this from Lawrence's posting, in which he decries the
Islamo
military occupation of Europe that was finally thrown off with the collapse
of the Ottoman
empire in the early 1900s.
By the way, Spain threw out the Muslims in 1492. 500 years ago. The Europeans
waited another
400 years. Slackers.
yrs,
andreas
www.andreas.com
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