[lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe
- From: "Lawrence Helm" <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 09:28:19 -0800
Simon, you sort of remind me of one of Will Rogers old sayings: "There are
three kinds of men: The ones who learn by reading, the few who learn by
observation, the rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out
for themselves." I am not just passing on the common view, the one you are
presenting. Gerolymatos book was intended to advance our understanding of
the region. He isn't just repeating the old information. He is correcting
it. You on the other hand are presenting the old information.
Gerolymatos quotes Samuel Butler who wrote, "It has been said that though
God cannot alter the past, historians can." Gerolymatos is bent upon
correcting our understanding of the Balkans.
Nevertheless someone is mistaken, as you suggest, Simon. Perhaps it is
Andre Gerolymatos, the author of The Balkan Wars whom I have been quoting.
Or perhaps it is you, Simon. Gerolymatos isn't an American; so I'm not
going to stick up for him too much. He holds the chair of Hellenic Studies
at Simon Fraser University in British Columbia, Canada. So there you go - a
Canadian. What can you expect?
I mentioned Romania & Bulgaria as being under Islamic rule and breaking
loose at about the same time as the Balkans; so they hardly comprise a
significant difference although the Balkans exceed them in violence. I'm
not willing to accept that Poland is backward. They are quite forward
looking and bent upon removing all the vestiges of Soviet domination.
The Serbs borders were messed with over the years by the Ottoman Empire in a
manner of speaking. The truth is that the Serbs didn't have any borders but
were submerged as serfs. When they fought and achieved their independence
that was a very big deal for them, but then Austria-Hungary decided to add
them to their empire; which they determined needed a little beefing up.
They thought Serbia would make a nice addition. The fatal visit of the
Austrian heir apparent was on the anniversary of the day they lost a major
battle to the Turks in the 14th century. The Serbs consider that the day
they lost their independence to the Turks, and now they are losing it once
again - this time to The Austro-Hungarian Empire and this Austrian Prince
and his bride Sophia have come to rub it in on the anniversary of the 1389
Battle of Kosovo. It was intolerable, and Princip for one wasn't going to
stand for it.
Gerolymatos says that the Archduke Ferdinand probably wasn't guilty of the
motives being ascribed to him by the Serbians. He probably didn't read
either. On that visit to Sarajevo on a June day in 1914, Archduke Ferdinand
pissed on their electric fence.
Lawrence
_____
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Simon Ward
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 7:02 AM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe
"We look at the Balkans and think they are the most backward part of Europe.
Why, we ask?"
Why? Because you're probably mistaken. I'd say that some of the Eastern
European nations are less well developed. Romania certainly and possibly
Bulgaria and Poland. Obviously, there's a reason for that and if you like
Lawrence you can ramble on about the backward nature of former communist
states. We'll let you do that I'm sure.
Simon
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence <mailto:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Helm
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 6:20 AM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe
My point had to do with current events. We see the effects of European
nations that have been under Islamic rule. We look at the Balkans and think
they are the most backward part of Europe. Why, we ask? They were under
Islamic rule for 500 years and share some of the characteristics of a modern
Islamic state, Andre Gerolymatos tells us in The Balkan Wars. Why, that's
very interesting, think I. I'll pass that along to my friends on Lit-Ideas.
Perhaps they will find that as interesting as I do.
And if, think I further, the Balkans with the benefit of being out from
under Ottoman rule for more than 100 years have difficulty behaving like
civilized Europeans, what chance does Turkey have (who used to be the
Ottoman Empire)? And what chance does Iraq have of achieving even limited
Democracy? No doubt there are some Iraqi intellectuals who know these
matters very well, but it seems an insurmountable task in this modern world
as it seems always to have been to educate a society to such a degree that
it will make the wisest decisions. It would be wise, we think, for Iraq to
become a viable democracy. Malaki seems to think so too, but the less
insightful Arab in the street just wants us out of there - as does the less
insightful American in some of our streets over here.
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Andreas Ramos
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 9:30 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe
From: "Lawrence Helm" <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> "Over the course of the nineteenth century, one
> Christian people after another in southeastern Europe threw off the
shackles
> of Ottoman rule without then being absorbed by a Great Power.
Back up a few hundred years and ask the same question. After the Roman
empire, Europe went
into decline from 600 AD to 1400 AD. In the same period, Arab world went
through a long
period of significant achievements in the sciences, medicine, astronomy, and
mathematics.
They were also important in philosophy, literature, and architecture.
Lawrence probably thinks I'm being unamerican for not praising the medieval
Saxons.
My point is that civilizations rise and fall. The Arab world did very well
for a while, and
the modern Western world has been doing well for a while.
However, one won't know this from Lawrence's posting, in which he decries
the Islamo
military occupation of Europe that was finally thrown off with the collapse
of the Ottoman
empire in the early 1900s.
By the way, Spain threw out the Muslims in 1492. 500 years ago. The
Europeans waited another
400 years. Slackers.
yrs,
andreas
www.andreas.com
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