My point had to do with current events. We see the effects of European nations that have been under Islamic rule. We look at the Balkans and think they are the most backward part of Europe. Why, we ask? They were under Islamic rule for 500 years and share some of the characteristics of a modern Islamic state, Andre Gerolymatos tells us in The Balkan Wars. Why, that's very interesting, think I. I'll pass that along to my friends on Lit-Ideas. Perhaps they will find that as interesting as I do. And if, think I further, the Balkans with the benefit of being out from under Ottoman rule for more than 100 years have difficulty behaving like civilized Europeans, what chance does Turkey have (who used to be the Ottoman Empire)? And what chance does Iraq have of achieving even limited Democracy? No doubt there are some Iraqi intellectuals who know these matters very well, but it seems an insurmountable task in this modern world as it seems always to have been to educate a society to such a degree that it will make the wisest decisions. It would be wise, we think, for Iraq to become a viable democracy. Malaki seems to think so too, but the less insightful Arab in the street just wants us out of there - as does the less insightful American in some of our streets over here. Lawrence -----Original Message----- From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Andreas Ramos Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 9:30 PM To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe From: "Lawrence Helm" <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx> > "Over the course of the nineteenth century, one > Christian people after another in southeastern Europe threw off the shackles > of Ottoman rule without then being absorbed by a Great Power. Back up a few hundred years and ask the same question. After the Roman empire, Europe went into decline from 600 AD to 1400 AD. In the same period, Arab world went through a long period of significant achievements in the sciences, medicine, astronomy, and mathematics. They were also important in philosophy, literature, and architecture. Lawrence probably thinks I'm being unamerican for not praising the medieval Saxons. My point is that civilizations rise and fall. The Arab world did very well for a while, and the modern Western world has been doing well for a while. However, one won't know this from Lawrence's posting, in which he decries the Islamo military occupation of Europe that was finally thrown off with the collapse of the Ottoman empire in the early 1900s. By the way, Spain threw out the Muslims in 1492. 500 years ago. The Europeans waited another 400 years. Slackers. yrs, andreas www.andreas.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html