[lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe
- From: "Lawrence Helm" <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 08:37:52 -0800
No, what you say isn't true. Christianity is not a foreign intrusion into
Europe. Europe, indeed the West would not exist today were it not for
Christianity. Christianity gave rise to the West including Liberal
Democracy. Marcel Gauchet discusses this in his The Disenchantment of the
World, A political History of Religion. Gauchet is not himself a Christian
and so does not believe that Christianity is necessary to the continued
existence of the Civilization it gave rise to. It can pass on the baton if
it likes and go out of existence. Charles Taylor (of Sources of the Self
fame) who wrote the foreword to the English edition of Gauchet's book takes
a different view and thinks Christianity has a vital roll to play in the
future. Both Christianity and Liberal Democracy are vital to the future of
the World, but their relationship is still being worked out.
So your if Islam then Christianity doesn't work in this context. It might
in other contexts but not in this one. We assume, most of us, that Western
Civilization is preferable to Medieval Civilization. Turkey, unlike
Fundamentalist brands of Islam, did not want to remain in the medieval
period. But it had trouble advancing beyond it. Ataturk blamed Islam,
believing that this religion was incompatible with modern forms of society
and government. But then Ataturk died and many of his successors and much
of the common people of Turkey preferred going back to the old ways, so we
have yet to see a thoroughly successful amalgamation of Islam with Liberal
Democracy - even an ostensibly secular society like Turkey is not able to
comfortably advance into Liberal Democracy when the citizens are Muslim and
do not want to go there.
Islam, the way it has been defined by a majority of Muslims, rejects modern
society and Liberal Democracy. Christianity gave rise to modern society and
Liberal Democracy.
I'm taking responsibility for what seems to me a misunderstanding here. I
was describing the De-Islamization of part of Europe as something that
occurred. Several European nations threw off the bondage of Islamic rule
during the last part of the 19th and early part of the 20th centuries. My
approval or disapproval wasn't vital to the reporting of these facts. We
see that various nations, Bulgaria, Romania, Greece, Serbia, etc threw off
Ottoman bondage, but they lag behind other European nations in their
development today. However, I take responsibility because I do approve. I
prefer Western Civilization to Islamic Civilization. I have chosen sides.
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Andreas Ramos
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 12:33 AM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe
So... Lawrence, if you celebrate the de-Islamization of Europe (obviously a
foreign
intrusion into Europe), what do you say to... the de-Christianization of
Europe. It's also a
foreign intrusion in Europe.
Are you calling for Europe to cast off 2,000 years of Christanic Militants?
yrs,
andreas
www.andreas.com
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