[lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe

  • From: "Simon Ward" <sedward@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 12:26:43 -0000

I'd say Lawrence is looking at the wrong reasons. The Balkans (notice the 
plural) were previously organised as Yugoslavia, despite there being a number 
of historically seperate states. Iraq, after the first world war, was created 
from three different tribal units. It's not that they're Islamic so much that 
both were artifically created and controlled generally with dictatorial powers 
that kept the underlying tensions bottled up. 


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Lawrence Helm 
  To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 6:20 AM
  Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe

  My point had to do with current events.  We see the effects of European 
nations that have been under Islamic rule.  We look at the Balkans and think 
they are the most backward part of Europe.  Why, we ask?  They were under 
Islamic rule for 500 years and share some of the characteristics of a modern 
Islamic state, Andre Gerolymatos tells us in The Balkan Wars.  Why, that's very 
interesting, think I.  I'll pass that along to my friends on Lit-Ideas.  
Perhaps they will find that as interesting as I do. 


  And if, think I further, the Balkans with the benefit of being out from under 
Ottoman rule for more than 100 years have difficulty behaving like civilized 
Europeans, what chance does Turkey have (who used to be the Ottoman Empire)?  
And what chance does Iraq have of achieving even limited Democracy?  No doubt 
there are some Iraqi intellectuals who know these matters very well, but it 
seems an insurmountable task in this modern world as it seems always to have 
been to educate a society to such a degree that it will make the wisest 
decisions.  It would be wise, we think, for Iraq to become a viable democracy.  
Malaki seems to think so too, but the less insightful Arab in the street just 
wants us out of there - as does the less insightful American in some of our 
streets over here.  





  -----Original Message-----
  From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] 
On Behalf Of Andreas Ramos
  Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 9:30 PM
  To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe


  From: "Lawrence Helm" <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx>


  > "Over the course of the nineteenth century, one

  > Christian people after another in southeastern Europe threw off the shackles

  > of Ottoman rule without then being absorbed by a Great Power.


  Back up a few hundred years and ask the same question. After the Roman 
empire, Europe went 

  into decline from 600 AD to 1400 AD. In the same period, Arab world went 
through a long 

  period of significant achievements in the sciences, medicine, astronomy, and 

  They were also important in philosophy, literature, and architecture.


  Lawrence probably thinks I'm being unamerican for not praising the medieval 


  My point is that civilizations rise and fall. The Arab world did very well 
for a while, and 

  the modern Western world has been doing well for a while.


  However, one won't know this from Lawrence's posting, in which he decries the 

  military occupation of Europe that was finally thrown off with the collapse 
of the Ottoman 

  empire in the early 1900s.


  By the way, Spain threw out the Muslims in 1492. 500 years ago. The Europeans 
waited another 

  400 years. Slackers.







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