You are quite wrong about Christianity and Liberal Democracy. I would be surprised if any modern (legitimate) historian denied the association between the two. As to atheism, that is not an intrinsic part of Liberal Democracy. Christianity (although it is difficult to speak of a unified entity) often finds its Liberal-Democratic child recalcitrant, but only a few parts, denominations, distance themselves from it. Moral suasion is what the churches typically pursue. You discuss some things that are not inherent in Liberal Democracy like rationalism. If by "rationalism" you are using the usual definition, in which the criterion of truth is not sensory but intellectual and deductive, I fail to see that it is necessarily opposed to Christianity. Two of the three most famous rationalists, Leibniz, Descartes and Spinoza were Christian and the third pretended to be. I don't think you have the right perspective about the Christian view of Church and State. I know of no major Christian denomination which argues that the state should be made subservient to the church. What you may be thinking of is that if there were a law passed which clearly conflicted with some Biblical principle or instruction and a Christian had to choose, he would obey God rather than man, but there has been no law that qualifies in that regard. The abortion controversy doesn't qualify although many Christians may think it does. It would only qualify if a law was passed like the one in China which forces parents to abort some of their children. But that is not the law in the US. No mother needs to abort her child if she doesn't want to. I don't know where you obtained your theological training, but it seems deficient. We know quite a lot about early Christianity and it isn't as you describe it. You're saying that "the core ideas of Islam is what Christianity should be," sort of gets tangled up in what follows. You say that Islam is what Christianity should be and that it was developed of "Christian and Jews ideas from 700 AD, well after the original Christians had restructure their ideas under Greek philosophy." I suspect that's not what you intended to say. You probably intended to say what the Islamists do, namely that Mohammad got the true idea of Christianity from the local Christian sects and that later under the influence of the Roman Church it was corrupted. That argument falls apart when we learn that what Mohammad has in mind was a local heretical Christian group which has long since ceased to exist. Gad, Andreas, you are sounding just like an Islamist! I have studied both Christian Theology and to a lesser extent Islamic Theology and there is no comparison. Christianity is a religion of belief, of emulating the perfect son of God, of wrestling with ones motivation and trying to get it right, but accepting forgiveness when one doesn't. It is not a religion of violence or anger. The Christian should turn the other cheek if insulted. Yes, there have been wars among Christian nations, but there is nothing in Christian theology that urges such wars. Leaders and peoples make up their own minds about such things. That is why at a certain point in Christian history, in 1648, the Peace of Westphalia could effectively put an end to Christian nations fighting against each other. There was nothing in Christian Theology like the political violent Jihad of Islam. It seems very doubtful that Islam can overcome this defect in their religion and achieve what has been achieved in the West through Christianity. Well, yes, I've read several Islamists claiming all sorts of things for those brilliant Arabs of old. It reminds me of the USSR claiming that the Russians had really invented virtually everything of value in the world - their claims were posted for years in Western papers and laughed at. And the USSR had quite a bit more justification for their claims than the Islamic Islamists. Well, you don't have Huntington's Civilizations quite right, but I think I take your meaning. If you are saying that there are many things about the West that are not all that admirable, I would agree. But our ability to change that is dependent upon us. Liberal Democracy is of such a nature that we could collectively choose to be other than we are. Maybe the things you describe are too seductive at the present time. Maybe it will be difficult to change, but there is nothing preventing us from changing. The way the Islamists would prevent it is to create a tyranny and lop things off if people did many of the things we do now in the West. Yeah, I disapprove of a lot of these things myself, but I don't want any tyrannical government to take over and start burning adulterers or lopping of hands of thieves or heads of blasphemers. I'd rather just keep on saying tch, tch, tch and hoping for the day we become more mature. Lawrence -----Original Message----- From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Andreas Ramos Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 11:28 AM To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe > Islam, the way it has been defined by a majority of Muslims, rejects modern > society and Liberal Democracy. Christianity gave rise to modern society and > Liberal Democracy. Wow. The Pope in Rome came up with rationalism and liberal democracy? Nobody could possibly say that Christianity encouraged modern society or liberal democracy. The Catholic Church fought tooth and nail against these atheist ideas: thousands were burnt at the stake; tens of thousands of intellectuals were censored or lived in self-censorship. Look at the USA today: the most fervent opponents of rationalism and liberal democracy are the Christians. Christian leaders insist their bible has superior power over the US government and the US Constitution. They talk openly of getting rid of modern democracy. And I don't need to mention their open anti-intellectualism and the way they dismiss science. Just consider their attitudes against evolution. Yes, there are ideas in Christianity that led to rationalism and liberal democracy, but you're not giving credit to the right group. Namely, the Greeks came up with the ideas of science, rationalism, and the concept of the soul. Original Christianity was a secretive Jewish cult, based on debased versions of Babylonian and Eyptian religious ideas. When Christianity came in contact with Greek philosophy, it took on Greek ideas and turned into what we call Christianity. And the same with Islam. Your allergy towards Islam won't let you see that their monotheism is far purer than Christianity. No trinity, no god-as-human, no virgin births. The core ideas of Islam is what Christianity should be. Islam was developed out of Christian and Jewish ideas from 700 AD, well after the original Christians had restructured their ideas under Greek philosophy. That's why Islam was so productive in the arts and sciences from 700 to the 1400s. The idea of a purely rationalist universe (where everything is logical and rational because Allah is rational) encourages science and mathematics. Thus Islamic mathematicians invented algebra. Note the "al-" in algebra? As in al-qaeda? Alcohol. Alchemy. Algorithm. Admiral. Azimuth. Borax. Cipher. Magazine. And the most brilliant idea of all, upon which modern science, mathematics, business, and technlogy is built: Zero. Without zero, no binary mathematics. No computers. All of these come from the Arabs. Look in the mirror, Lawrence. Recognize the Islamic influence on the West? Will you finally embrace your Inner Muslim and welcome him to dinner? You will say, aha!, but why are they so backwards now? It's due to the conservatism of Islam, and yes, that's the very same conservatism of Christianity that kept Europe from developing for a thousand years. Intellectuals finally were able to throw off the suffrocating blanket of Christianity and develop the sciences and technology. The same is happening to Islam. In these years, many fundamentalist leaders in Islam have been trying to reject modernism and retreat into ideological purity. But computers (fueled by good ol' American porn), machines, airplanes, finance, and all the powerful idea of the modern world will seep in and create a new basis for their world. That's happening: Osama was trained as an engineer and uses the web and cell phones. He's a Sunday Muslim, so to speak. He talks Islam, but his work is done using our tools. This is what happened to all of Huntington's "civilizations". The Indians, the Chinese, the Koreans, the Japanese, the Malaysians: they have thrown away their civilizations and rushed into the modern world: computers, cell phones, digital devices, PDAs, MIT, MP3s, jet planes, 72" flat-screen plasma TVs, DVDs, stock markets, IPOs, ... yeah! All the Good Stuff! Based on rationalist science and technology, based the 3,000-year old ideas of the Greeks. It's not "the West" anymore. It's the Modern World, globalization, spanning from Berlin to Paris to NYC to Silicon Valley to Tokyo, Seoul, Shanghai, Beijing, Kuala Lumpur, and Bangalore. One huge global network of technology and finance that is extremely attractive to people who are intelligent because they can work, improve their lives, and become wealthy. yrs, andreas www.andreas.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html