[lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe

  • From: "Lawrence Helm" <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 11:01:47 -0800


Lawrence Helm wrote:



"They [i.e. Lawrence's pacifist friends] ended up as ambivalent as the

people here."


Phil:  That you thought this doesn't surprise me.  You tell people what they

believe and then, surprise, surprise, tell them that these beliefs are

illogical, or ambivalent.  There is nothing 'ambivalent' with the pacifist

position that nation states are compelled to defend themselves and that a

citizen of a state may believe that their participation in war is morally

wrong.  Furthermore, there is nothing 'ambivalent' in the belief that taking

up arms is wrong and that one may find oneself in the position of having to

defend one's family.


Lawrence:  Gosh, Phil, that sounds like a perfect example of ambivalence to



Lawrence again:


"Catholics are not pacifistic."


Phil: A claim which shows how much you know about the state of contemporary

Christianity.  See the recent statement by U.S. Catholic bishops on war.

Your 'knowledge' of Christianity is terribly parochial.


Lawrence:  I spent some time going through that document the last time we
had this conversation. You had your favorite document, but there were
others.  I have a headache and don't really want to do this again.  Is any
of this coming back to you.  I got out Elshtain on Just War against Terror.
Maybe you could get Simon to go on a wild goose chase and dig all that stuff
out again.   A group of Catholics can be pacifistic, but the bulk of
Catholics are not.  Surely you know that, Phil.  Human nature equips us to
defend ourselves.  We have to be talked into pacifism and then when our
pacifism is put to a serious test, it fails.  





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