[PCB_FORUM] Re: Metric to English - English to Metric
- From: "Austin Franklin" <austin@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <icu-pcb-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 22:45:09 -0400
MessageGeorge,
I'm not sure what reason you are referring to here, but from what I can see,
there is only one real reason and that is because there is a problem with
Allegro. If this problem was fixed, there would be no reason not to switch
back and forth. It really isn't magic. People do it in PADS (and other
programs) all the time.
Regards,
Austin
-----Original Message-----
From: icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of
george.h.patrick@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 6:35 PM
To: icu-pcb-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [PCB_FORUM] Re: Metric to English - English to Metric
All the more reason to...
( wait for it ... )
Stay in the same units you start with!
(K.I.S.S) :))
--
George Patrick
Tektronix, Inc.
Central Engineering, PCB Design Group
P.O. Box 500, M/S 39-512
Beaverton, OR 97077-0001
Phone: 503-627-5272 Fax: 503-627-5587
http://www.tektronix.com http://www.pcb-designer.com
It's my opinion, not Tektronix'
-----Original Message-----
From: icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of richard moffat
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 15:20
To: icu-pcb-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [PCB_FORUM] Re: Metric to English - English to Metric
Sorry - I wrote a " when I shoulda put mils. Same maths and numbers
apply.
>>> annoonan@xxxxxxxxx 26/08/2005 10:14:23 a.m. >>>
Hi Richard,
I think we talked about using 2 decimal places in MILS, not inches.
Again, I haven't taken any time to go through the motions yet myself.
I can see though, how 2 decimal places in INCHES would cause undesirable
results.
Regards,
Andrew
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of richard moffat
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 3:08 PM
To: icu-pcb-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [PCB_FORUM] Re: Metric to English - English to Metric
This will work most of the time, sometimes it will trip you up. eg:
0.0009mm -> 0.0354"
0.0354" rounds to 0.04"
0.04" -> 0.001016mm
0.001016mm rounds to 0.001mm
so you see you've lost some accuracy already. Caveat emptor ...
>>> annoonan@xxxxxxxxx 26/08/2005 3:56:24 a.m. >>>
Hi Kanak,
Someone made an interesting suggestion yesterday. When you must switch
back and forth, set the accuracy in millimeters to 4 decimal places, and the
mils to 2 decimal places. Apparently this removes the rounding errors. I
haven't tried it my self, but it's worth a try if you need to use this
approach.
Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kanakaraj
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 9:11 PM
To: icu-pcb-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [PCB_FORUM] Re: Metric to English - English to Metric
Hi,
In my project, the customer has given the mechanical dimensions of the
connectors and mouting holes in mm. ( with three digit accuracy like 21.213
mm). I place the connector with milimeter as measurement unit and switch
back to mils for routing.
When we are doing the dimensioning, we again switch back to milimeter,
then we encounter errors upto two decimal points. ( the connector fixed at
21.213mm is showing as 21.192 mm.. for an example).
have any one encountered issues like this? how can this be fixed.
Regards
~Kanak
----- Original Message -----
From: george.h.patrick@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: icu-pcb-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 3:39 AM
Subject: [PCB_FORUM] Re: Metric to English - English to Metric
The question remains:
WHY switch back and forth?
If the board is started in one unit, you are making it harder on
yourself and others switching back and forth, even with NO round off errors.
The grids are different, the trace widths are different (unless you LIKE
typing two decimal places all the time). It is senseless to be switching it
around, unless it is just to make extra work for yourself or your
international partner. Why not just KEEP IT SIMPLE (K.I.S.S.) :)
--
George Patrick
Tektronix, Inc.
Central Engineering, PCB Design Group
P.O. Box 500, M/S 39-512
Beaverton, OR 97077-0001
Phone: 503-627-5272 Fax: 503-627-5587
http://www.tektronix.com http://www.pcb-designer.com
It's my opinion, not Tektronix'
-----Original Message-----
From: icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Patrick Jabbaz
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 14:58
To: icu-pcb-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [PCB_FORUM] Re: Metric to English - English to Metric
Here is the trick to make it work, In Allegro,
You can switch units from metric to mils, and vise versa without
errors, if you have the following setup:
User Units mils use 2 decimal places
User Units millimeter use 4 decimal places
Using this process, allows you to switch back and forth without
any round off errors.
Patrick Jabbaz
Sr. PCB Design Eng.
Xilinx
2100 Logic Drive
San Jose, Ca 95124
Direct: 408-879-4709
M: 408-621-6533
email: patrick.jabbaz@xxxxxxxxxx
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Austin Franklin
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 2:26 PM
To: icu-pcb-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [PCB_FORUM] Re: Metric to English - English to Metric
Hi Richard,
Perhaps more than a decade ago, the CPU and code speed may have
been an issue. But, in the realm we are talking about (a printed circuit
board and the range of numbers and precision necessary) IMO and IME the
compiler imposes no significant restrictions, nor does the "math processor"
in the CPU. Again, it is simply a matter of knowing where the decimal point
is.
In Allegro, you don't convert because the tool can not handle it.
In a tool that can adequately handle it, this is not an issue.
Regards,
Austin
-----Original Message-----
From: icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of richard moffat
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 5:15 PM
To: icu-pcb-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [PCB_FORUM] Re: Metric to English - English to Metric
Cadence is probably making a compromise for speed. The way that
other tools may allow a seemless interchange is to have a greater length of
significant numbers in the internal database, especially converting
metric->imperial.
The programmers are restricted to that they are given: The C
compiler, and the maths processor on the CPU.
In short: don't convert!
>>> austin@xxxxxxxxxxxx 25/08/2005 9:08:15 a.m. >>>
Hi,
> Conversely, 1/10 (0.1) cannot be exactly represented in base
2...
I design ASICs, and I have done a LOT of arithmetic functions in
ASICs, and
use decimal points all the time. All hardware arithmetic
functions are done
in base 2. It's simply a matter of knowing where the decimal
point is and
using enough digits. Yet, it goes on to explain the solution
(as I said,
knowing where the decimal point is)...so I fail to see the
*real* problem.
As was pointed out, PADS has no problem switching back and forth
between the
two unit systems, so I simply don't believe Allegro can't do it
as well. It
seems like this may be a self imposed restriction:
> The real issue is that some numbers can't be represented
exactly in the
> standard floating point representation.
Why do they have to use "standard" floating point representation
anyway?
Sounds like someone programmed themselves into a corner, and
instead fixing
it, they are trying to come up with explanations...instead of
solutions.
Sigh. To me, this is a huge weakness of Allegro.
Regards,
Austin
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