Hey Richard- Was that "Joules" instead of "Jules" on purpose? Gotta be a double E..... ;-> -Chris "richard moffat" <richard.moffat@alliedtele To: <icu-pcb-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> syn.co.nz> cc: Sent by: Subject: [PCB_FORUM] Re: Metric to English - icu-pcb-forum-bounce@freel English to Metric ists.org 08/30/2005 05:32 PM Please respond to icu-pcb-forum How about : - the Indy 804.67 - the 1.609 kilometer high club - Joules Verne's "112630 Kilometers Under the Sea" :) >>> chris.ball@xxxxxxxxx 31/08/2005 4:50:46 a.m. >>> I recently began doing some of my designs in metric. I've been DIMENSIONING prints in metric for a long time, but that's different. I don't even think they tried to teach us metric when I was in grade school. Maybe they showed us a meter stick beside a yardstick once..... Anyhow, I too will always think first in inches, but can function OK in a metric env as long as I stay focused in on the little stuff; 0.15 trace, 0.3 hole... that's kinda thing. Still glitch badly from time to time, but it's do-able. -Chris (el-CID) "Schwartz, Jerome" <jschwa01@xxxxxxxxxx> To: <icu-pcb-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent by: cc: icu-pcb-forum-bounce@freel Subject: [PCB_FORUM] Re: Metric to ists.org English - English to Metric 08/30/2005 12:31 PM Please respond to icu-pcb-forum I have considered designing in metric only for a while. It would make routing cleaner in BGA's etc. I have two reasons for not using metric. These might only be unique to me. 1. My designs can only be fabricated in the US. All of our vendors will convert the metric Gerber data to English. Thereby, creating the round off, and offset, problem I wanted to avoid in the first place. 2. Grade school, in the 1960's, tried to teach us metric. It still hasn't taken. "You can't teach an old dog new tricks." Therefore, I would always be converting in my head. IMHO (In My Humble Opinion) Although I am am seldom humble ;) Regards, Jerry Schwartz, CID+ IPC Advanced Certified Designer "May The Schwartz Be With You." Designer 3 Harris Corporation GCSD Voice (321)-727-5474 P.O. Box 37, MS 1-11F Pager (321)-690-9797 Melbourne, FL 32902-0037 mailto:Jerome.Schwartz@xxxxxxxxxx http://www.harris.com NOTE: IF SOMETHING I SAY CAN BE TAKEN TWO WAYS AND ONE OF THEM OFFENDS YOU. I MEANT THE OTHER ONE. -----Original Message----- From: icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Gene Carman Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 12:05 PM To: icu-pcb-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [PCB_FORUM] Re: Metric to English - English to Metric You guys are doing layouts in copper right? What kind of tolerance do you think you get anyway? -----Original Message----- From: icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of george.h.patrick@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 8:33 AM To: icu-pcb-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [PCB_FORUM] Re: Metric to English - English to Metric Whatever you say, Austin. PADS changed mathematics so there would be no round off. -- George Patrick Tektronix, Inc. Central Engineering, PCB Design Group P.O. Box 500, M/S 39-512 Beaverton, OR 97077-0001 Phone: 503-627-5272 Fax: 503-627-5587 http://www.tektronix.com http://www.pcb-designer.com It's my opinion, not Tektronix' -----Original Message----- From: icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Austin Franklin Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 19:45 To: icu-pcb-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [PCB_FORUM] Re: Metric to English - English to Metric George, I'm not sure what reason you are referring to here, but from what I can see, there is only one real reason and that is because there is a problem with Allegro. If this problem was fixed, there would be no reason not to switch back and forth. It really isn't magic. People do it in PADS (and other programs) all the time. Regards, Austin -----Original Message----- From: icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of george.h.patrick@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 6:35 PM To: icu-pcb-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [PCB_FORUM] Re: Metric to English - English to Metric All the more reason to... ( wait for it ... ) Stay in the same units you start with! (K.I.S.S) :)) -- George Patrick Tektronix, Inc. Central Engineering, PCB Design Group P.O. Box 500, M/S 39-512 Beaverton, OR 97077-0001 Phone: 503-627-5272 Fax: 503-627-5587 http://www.tektronix.com http://www.pcb-designer.com It's my opinion, not Tektronix' -----Original Message----- From: icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of richard moffat Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 15:20 To: icu-pcb-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [PCB_FORUM] Re: Metric to English - English to Metric Sorry - I wrote a " when I shoulda put mils. Same maths and numbers apply. >>> annoonan@xxxxxxxxx 26/08/2005 10:14:23 a.m. >>> Hi Richard, I think we talked about using 2 decimal places in MILS, not inches. Again, I haven't taken any time to go through the motions yet myself. I can see though, how 2 decimal places in INCHES would cause undesirable results. Regards, Andrew From: icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of richard moffat Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 3:08 PM To: icu-pcb-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [PCB_FORUM] Re: Metric to English - English to Metric This will work most of the time, sometimes it will trip you up. eg: 0.0009mm -> 0.0354" 0.0354" rounds to 0.04" 0.04" -> 0.001016mm 0.001016mm rounds to 0.001mm so you see you've lost some accuracy already. Caveat emptor ... >>> annoonan@xxxxxxxxx 26/08/2005 3:56:24 a.m. >>> Hi Kanak, Someone made an interesting suggestion yesterday. When you must switch back and forth, set the accuracy in millimeters to 4 decimal places, and the mils to 2 decimal places. Apparently this removes the rounding errors. I haven't tried it my self, but it's worth a try if you need to use this approach. Andrew -----Original Message----- From: icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kanakaraj Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 9:11 PM To: icu-pcb-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [PCB_FORUM] Re: Metric to English - English to Metric Hi, In my project, the customer has given the mechanical dimensions of the connectors and mouting holes in mm. ( with three digit accuracy like 21.213 mm). I place the connector with milimeter as measurement unit and switch back to mils for routing. When we are doing the dimensioning, we again switch back to milimeter, then we encounter errors upto two decimal points. ( the connector fixed at 21.213mm is showing as 21.192 mm.. for an example). have any one encountered issues like this? how can this be fixed. Regards ~Kanak ----- Original Message ----- From: george.h.patrick@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx To: icu-pcb-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 3:39 AM Subject: [PCB_FORUM] Re: Metric to English - English to Metric The question remains: WHY switch back and forth? If the board is started in one unit, you are making it harder on yourself and others switching back and forth, even with NO round off errors. The grids are different, the trace widths are different (unless you LIKE typing two decimal places all the time). It is senseless to be switching it around, unless it is just to make extra work for yourself or your international partner. Why not just KEEP IT SIMPLE (K.I.S.S.) :) -- George Patrick Tektronix, Inc. Central Engineering, PCB Design Group P.O. Box 500, M/S 39-512 Beaverton, OR 97077-0001 Phone: 503-627-5272 Fax: 503-627-5587 http://www.tektronix.com http://www.pcb-designer.com It's my opinion, not Tektronix' -----Original Message----- From: icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [ mailto:icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Patrick Jabbaz Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 14:58 To: icu-pcb-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [PCB_FORUM] Re: Metric to English - English to Metric Here is the trick to make it work, In Allegro, You can switch units from metric to mils, and vise versa without errors, if you have the following setup: User Units mils use 2 decimal places User Units millimeter use 4 decimal places Using this process, allows you to switch back and forth without any round off errors. Patrick Jabbaz Sr. PCB Design Eng. Xilinx 2100 Logic Drive San Jose, Ca 95124 Direct: 408-879-4709 M: 408-621-6533 email: patrick.jabbaz@xxxxxxxxxx From: icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [ mailto:icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Austin Franklin Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 2:26 PM To: icu-pcb-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [PCB_FORUM] Re: Metric to English - English to Metric Hi Richard, Perhaps more than a decade ago, the CPU and code speed may have been an issue. But, in the realm we are talking about (a printed circuit board and the range of numbers and precision necessary) IMO and IME the compiler imposes no significant restrictions, nor does the "math processor" in the CPU. Again, it is simply a matter of knowing where the decimal point is. In Allegro, you don't convert because the tool can not handle it. In a tool that can adequately handle it, this is not an issue. Regards, Austin -----Original Message----- From: icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [ mailto:icu-pcb-forum-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of richard moffat Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 5:15 PM To: icu-pcb-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [PCB_FORUM] Re: Metric to English - English to Metric Cadence is probably making a compromise for speed. The way that other tools may allow a seemless interchange is to have a greater length of significant numbers in the internal database, especially converting metric->imperial. The programmers are restricted to that they are given: The C compiler, and the maths processor on the CPU. In short: don't convert! >>> austin@xxxxxxxxxxxx 25/08/2005 9:08:15 a.m. >>> Hi, > Conversely, 1/10 (0.1) cannot be exactly represented in base 2... I design ASICs, and I have done a LOT of arithmetic functions in ASICs, and use decimal points all the time. All hardware arithmetic functions are done in base 2. It's simply a matter of knowing where the decimal point is and using enough digits. Yet, it goes on to explain the solution (as I said, knowing where the decimal point is)...so I fail to see the *real* problem. As was pointed out, PADS has no problem switching back and forth between the two unit systems, so I simply don't believe Allegro can't do it as well. It seems like this may be a self imposed restriction: > The real issue is that some numbers can't be represented exactly in the > standard floating point representation. Why do they have to use "standard" floating point representation anyway? Sounds like someone programmed themselves into a corner, and instead fixing it, they are trying to come up with explanations...instead of solutions. Sigh. To me, this is a huge weakness of Allegro. Regards, Austin -- This message contains information from GDA Technologies LTD and affiliates, and is intended for the sole use of the individual and entity to whom it is addressed. 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