[haiku-development] Re: Vim episodes. IV. It is ready to breathe...
- From: "Stephan Assmus" <superstippi@xxxxxx>
- To: haiku-development@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 08 May 2009 10:14:39 +0200
-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Fri, 08 May 2009 09:40:56 +0200 CEST
> Von: "Axel Dörfler" <axeld@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> An: haiku-development@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Betreff: [haiku-development] Re: Vim episodes. IV. It is ready to breathe...
> Fredrik Holmqvist <fredrik.holmqvist@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > 2009/5/7 Axel Dörfler <axeld@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
> > > I would argue people who use the shell always need to know what
> > > they
> > > are doing.
> > > If you are not only remotely connected to a system, you would use a
> > > real editor, anyway.
> > I disagree. Do we really want that kind of mentality, that you
> > already
> > have to know what you're doing before you start using the shell? Do
> > we
> > really want to use something that most users and some devs can't work
> > with as a default editor?
>
> Huh? The shell is simply not usable for someone that doesn't know how
> to use it. Vim is mostly the same problem here, just a bit worse. I
> can't recommend using vim for anyone that didn't read at least a short
> guide yet. But the same goes for the shell, actually. That's not a
> mentality, that's just how it is.
> If you use vim even though you don't know how to use it, and have a GUI
> editor installed (like StyledEdit), why not use that one instead?
The point here is how much is common knowledge for a substantial number of
people. If someone logs into another machine already using a Terminal, you can
expect them to know how to operate a terminal and execute basic commands. I
could go on and explain things, but I feel stupid doing it. Why do we even
discuss things on this level?
> > (Yes it's really powerful, but it's very unintuitive. Here is how I
> > use it:
> > Every time I get thrown into vi without me expecting it, like doing
> > svn commit which uses the default editor I get really frustrated and
> > annoyed. (In fact I want to throw the computer out the window). I
> > usually use CTRL-Z and kill the process, because it's very
> > unintuitive
> > to even learn basic commands like help or quit.)
>
> If you don't know vim, why do you start it in the first place? Just
> because you heard it's an editor??
> Why would you want to use commands you don't know to use? The shell
> commands can be pretty destructive, and so you better always know what
> you're doing.
It has been said before that you end up in vi not on purpose. I don't know why
we even discuss this still. The other point is what is available to you. For
example, Haiku has "open". "open" is something else in Linux, but I find open
to be much more useful how it exists in Haiku and I frequently tried to use it
that way in Linux when I began using it more. open could figure out that you
are logged in remotely, or that the desktop is not running, and then launch
terminal apps in your current session. For example a text editor that manages
to explain itself when you don't know it.
I really don't see your point, Axel. If it were not a problem for some
(probably more than enough) people, why would we even discuss this? It is a
problem exactly because we even discuss it. So please acknowledge at least this
much.
Best regards,
-Stephan
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