[bksvol-discuss] Re: VOTE! Efficient Way To Treat/Include Footnote References

Hi all,

Further to my suggestion the other day regarding using asterisks to mark
footnotes, it occurs to me that asterisks are already used in print books to
alert the reader that there is additional information, usually at the bottom
of the page. It seems appropriate to me for us to use them to mark a
footnote number. Then we  aren't using punctuation in a way that is
generally not used in print to suit our purposes.

Just my additional two cents...

Deborah


-----Original Message-----
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Roger Loran Bailey
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 10:12 AM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: VOTE! Efficient Way To Treat/Include Footnote
References

I think Deborah's suggestion of an asterisk and then the footnote number 
is pretty unambiguous. Can you think of cases in which that would be 
ambiguous?

On 3/21/2012 12:11 AM, misha wrote:
> I favor no end footnote is needed.  Some people put [Picture caption: 
> picture caption text end picture caption] but the manual says just the 
> bracket at the end is enough.  It should be enough for footnotes also 
> [Footnote: (1) Footnote text]
>
> But now I suppose I'll have to go back to putting parens around the 
> footnote numbers.  I'm pretty certain there is no way to indicate the 
> footnote numbers in text that is unambiguous in all cases.  That's 
> because even for sighted readers there are books where the author puts 
> footnote numbers in parentheses and uses parentheses around numbers in 
> lists or outline heading numbers and worst of all around page 
> numbers.  While we use square brackets for our added comments such as 
> [Scanner note] some books use them in the same way I've described for 
> parens above, even *shudder* around page numbers.  Superscripts can 
> appear in chemical and mathematical formulas in addition to footnote 
> numbers.
>
> I scan mostly fiction, but I proof mostly non-fiction--and I really 
> don't want to put in all those end footnotes.
>
> I was originally going to just put in a quick note with my vote, but 
> it seems I got off on a rant.
>
> Misha
>
> On 3/19/2012 3:47 PM, Mayrie ReNae wrote:
>> Hi Sue,
>>
>> That is what I thought. But because others spoke up loudly for the words
>> being placed there, that is what was recommended that we do.
>>
>> Should we revisit this and opt not to have the "end footnote" phrase?  I
>> personally would love to see that happen.
>>
>> We do want the best solution for the most people.  And if Bookshare 
>> didn't
>> ever change, we wouldn't be where we are today.
>>
>> If the topic of how to handle footnote citations at the end of the 
>> page is
>> revisited, please limit your comments to either of the following 
>> statements:
>>
>> Keep "end footnote"
>> or "End footnote" is unnecessary since the closing bracket denotes that.
>>
>> We don't want a huge overblown thread, simply a decision.
>>
>> Those of you who are gritting your teeth, please forgive me.  I too 
>> don't
>> like when this kind of thing happens. We've revisited way too many 
>> decisions
>> in the past. Let's keep this short and quick.
>>
>> I'm in the process of reworking the Scanning and Proofreading Manual 
>> to make
>> it more concise, but still as inclusive as possible, as well as 
>> putting all
>> of those separate linked pages into one document.  If we're going to 
>> change
>> this, now would be an optimal time to do it.
>>
>> I'll watch through the next two or three days and decide accordingly 
>> about
>> what is thought to be most helpful to the most people, given the 
>> smallness
>> of our population on this list compared to the entire Bookshare 
>> patronage.
>>
>> Thanks for all of your tolerance and patience. We won't revisit this 
>> again
>> after this Friday.
>>
>> Mayrie
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Sue Stevens
>> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 2:05 PM
>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Efficient Way To Treat/Include Footnote
>> References
>>
>> It seems unnecessary, in my opinion, to put the words footnote, and end
>> footnote.  If the foootnote is in brackets, the readers will know 
>> when they
>> end and when they begin.
>>
>> Sue S.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Mayrie ReNae
>> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 2:38 PM
>> To: k1000@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Cc: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Efficient Way To Treat/Include Footnote
>> References
>>
>> Hi Rik,
>>
>> Please, please don't move text from one page to another unless it is 
>> to join
>> a broken word between two pages to the page on which it begins.  And 
>> please
>> don't move footnote citations from one page to another when preparing 
>> books
>> for Bookshare.  This is an altering of the text that we don't permit.
>>
>> Also, your handling of footnotes by labeling them is absolutely fine and
>> preferred.  You should, however, please, include that text in 
>> brackets like
>> this:
>>
>> [Footnote: Hop On Pop by Dr. Seuss
>> End footnote]
>>
>> And finally, to give the best results for all readers please handle
>> inserting footnote numbers by placing them in brackets [] and 
>> surrounding
>> those by spaces.  Though this is not traditional, it has been stated 
>> as the
>> way that works best for braille readers of Bookshare books who don't 
>> have
>> access to superscripted numbers, and sighted readers using the same 
>> books.
>>
>> Thanks for all of your intense attention to detail!  You folks with the
>> patience to tackle this kind of stuff are marvelous!  I have to want 
>> to read
>> a book so badly that I can taste it before I'll willingly attempt 
>> processing
>> this stuff.
>>
>> Rock on everyone!  We truly do have a devoted, conscientious, and 
>> just plain
>> wonderful group of volunteers!  We really value all of you!
>>
>> Mayrie
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: k1000-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:k1000-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of 
>> ohio1803@xxxxx
>> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 10:14 AM
>> To: k1000@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: Efficient Way To Treat/Include Footnote References
>>
>> Hello Kane,
>>
>> Wow, as many as 20 citation notes on each page? That is pretty dense, 
>> isn't
>> it.
>>
>> I sure do not know about setting up K-1000 to do this stuff 
>> automatically.
>> Maybe. But I don't know. And even if so, it seems that the likelihood it
>> might do it wrong is pretty likely, too. Thereby changing something that
>> might negatively impact the citation. And if you do happen to be a 
>> Bookshare
>> member who is reading this type of content and want the citation, 
>> then that
>> is not good. Not to mention the publisher agreements.
>>
>> My 2 cents are maybe just for others to hear and see what they think.
>> I'm not exactly sure, officially.
>>
>> I have the following ideas to tell you. I have scanned with footnotes 
>> and
>> citations on the same page.
>> Two ways.
>>
>> In one method, I have moved the citations, to the end of the chapter or
>> section in which they are.
>> But when I do, I try to make good and sure that the citation number 
>> with the
>> text in the page is clear and that the citation is correct.
>> Moving text in this way does allow the reader to move through the 
>> content
>> and not be interrupted with the narrative so much. This is also 
>> something
>> you can do with photograph captions.  Caution. Anytime we do this 
>> type of
>> thing, however, great care to make sure you do it without omission or
>> errors.
>>
>> In the other method, I leave the citations on the same page, and just 
>> make
>> sure that the citation numbers are as stated in the manual. If you 
>> have a
>> number right up beside the period, it is clear that there is a 
>> citation for
>> it.  I have not yet put that number in a bracket. But maybe I should. 
>> So I
>> did not know about that.
>>
>> But down below with the citation, I do this, which I do not think is 
>> in the
>> manual. I put the word "footnote" in that bracket.  For example, 
>> [footnote #
>> 1: Alfred's Good Rule of Thumb, 1997. end footnote # 1].  Maybe this is
>> wrong, and I should never do it again.
>>
>> But, for me, at least, this seems to clearly indicate as I am reading 
>> that
>> this is the citation to the above content.
>> (The insertion of the word "footnote," I mean.) But it is probably not
>> altogether necessary. Maybe a bothersome thing to hear for another 
>> reader .
>>
>> Also...
>>
>> In either case, for me what I try to do is to make sure that the page 
>> ends
>> in a complete sentence.   Whether that means grabbing the end of a 
>> sentence
>> from the next page and pasting with the text at the end of the page, 
>> or vice
>> versa, moving the incomplete sentence to paste with the rest on the next
>> page. For me, this is the thing I most like to find in Bookshare books I
>> download and read.  That I don't have to lose my train of thought on a
>> broken up sentence.  But of course a lot of times you just have to be 
>> paying
>> enough attention as you read, and notice you had a broken sentence 
>> and go
>> find the rest of it.
>>
>> Sorry I got sort of long.
>> But I hope that helps and makes some sense.
>>
>> Really, when tackling these types of books, I think you kind of need 
>> to know
>> they will take this kind of detailed effort. If you do not want to 
>> fool with
>> all of it, perhaps choosing books without so darned much citations is a
>> better fit. Especially when we are putting them in this permanent 
>> collection
>> for the members. If I do it for my own personal reading I often skip all
>> that stuff, too.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Rik James
>>
>> *******************************************************
>> To find out how to unsubscribe, please visit:
>> http://www.kurzweiledu.com/support_listserv_signup.asp
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: k1000-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:k1000-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of 
>> ohio1803@xxxxx
>> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 10:14 AM
>> To: k1000@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: Efficient Way To Treat/Include Footnote References
>>
>> Hello Kane,
>>
>> Wow, as many as 20 citation notes on each page? That is pretty dense, 
>> isn't
>> it.
>>
>> I sure do not know about setting up K-1000 to do this stuff 
>> automatically.
>> Maybe. But I don't know. And even if so, it seems that the likelihood it
>> might do it wrong is pretty likely, too. Thereby changing something that
>> might negatively impact the citation. And if you do happen to be a 
>> Bookshare
>> member who is reading this type of content and want the citation, 
>> then that
>> is not good. Not to mention the publisher agreements.
>>
>> My 2 cents are maybe just for others to hear and see what they think.
>> I'm not exactly sure, officially.
>>
>> I have the following ideas to tell you. I have scanned with footnotes 
>> and
>> citations on the same page.
>> Two ways.
>>
>> In one method, I have moved the citations, to the end of the chapter or
>> section in which they are.
>> But when I do, I try to make good and sure that the citation number 
>> with the
>> text in the page is clear and that the citation is correct.
>> Moving text in this way does allow the reader to move through the 
>> content
>> and not be interrupted with the narrative so much. This is also 
>> something
>> you can do with photograph captions.  Caution. Anytime we do this 
>> type of
>> thing, however, great care to make sure you do it without omission or
>> errors.
>>
>> In the other method, I leave the citations on the same page, and just 
>> make
>> sure that the citation numbers are as stated in the manual. If you 
>> have a
>> number right up beside the period, it is clear that there is a 
>> citation for
>> it.  I have not yet put that number in a bracket. But maybe I should. 
>> So I
>> did not know about that.
>>
>> But down below with the citation, I do this, which I do not think is 
>> in the
>> manual. I put the word "footnote" in that bracket.  For example, 
>> [footnote #
>> 1: Alfred's Good Rule of Thumb, 1997. end footnote # 1].  Maybe this is
>> wrong, and I should never do it again.
>>
>> But, for me, at least, this seems to clearly indicate as I am reading 
>> that
>> this is the citation to the above content.
>> (The insertion of the word "footnote," I mean.) But it is probably not
>> altogether necessary. Maybe a bothersome thing to hear for another 
>> reader .
>>
>> Also...
>>
>> In either case, for me what I try to do is to make sure that the page 
>> ends
>> in a complete sentence.   Whether that means grabbing the end of a 
>> sentence
>> from the next page and pasting with the text at the end of the page, 
>> or vice
>> versa, moving the incomplete sentence to paste with the rest on the next
>> page. For me, this is the thing I most like to find in Bookshare books I
>> download and read.  That I don't have to lose my train of thought on a
>> broken up sentence.  But of course a lot of times you just have to be 
>> paying
>> enough attention as you read, and notice you had a broken sentence 
>> and go
>> find the rest of it.
>>
>> Sorry I got sort of long.
>> But I hope that helps and makes some sense.
>>
>> Really, when tackling these types of books, I think you kind of need 
>> to know
>> they will take this kind of detailed effort. If you do not want to 
>> fool with
>> all of it, perhaps choosing books without so darned much citations is a
>> better fit. Especially when we are putting them in this permanent 
>> collection
>> for the members. If I do it for my own personal reading I often skip all
>> that stuff, too.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Rik James
>>
>> *******************************************************
>> To find out how to unsubscribe, please visit:
>> http://www.kurzweiledu.com/support_listserv_signup.asp
>>
>> To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to
>> bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line.  To get a 
>> list of
>> available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the subject line.
>>
>>
>>
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>
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