[bksvol-discuss] Re: VOTE! Efficient Way To Treat/Include Footnote References
- From: Cindy <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: "bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 12:57:22 -0700 (PDT)
o.k., Sandi; thanks for that info. In my next nonfiction book to proof that's
what I'll do with the footnote numbers in the text, and instead of asterisks
separating the bottom-of-the-page footnotes from the body I'll put FOOTNOTES
Cindy
Join us in celebrating our 10th Anniversary!
TinyURL.com/752cyrs
>________________________________
> From: Sandi Ryan <sjryan2@xxxxxxxxx>
>To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2012 8:46 AM
>Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: VOTE! Efficient Way To Treat/Include Footnote
>References
>
>
>
>Didn't this whole discussion start with Kane's
mention of endnotes, which are a completely different animal from
footnotes? There are generally only one or two--or sometimes
three--footnotes at the end of any given page. Endnotes are the numbers
placed within text that refer the reader to further information or reference
materials (usually placed at the end of the book) on the topic. In this
case, what we need to decide is how the numbers will be denoted within the text
so that they refer to a section at the end of the book titled "Endnotes" or
"References" or both.
>
>The reason the Bookshare tool strips superscripts
is that, in Braille, they cannot be used. They look nice in print, but
they don't exist in Braille. And in audio it would be impossible to note
where they fell on the line, I'd think.
>
>For endnotes, which started this topic, I'd
recommend that each number be spaced one space from the period (otherwise it
creates a decimal point in the Braille text), placed in either parentheses or
brackets (a note could be added at the beginning of the book to state how
they're handled), and the endnotes or references gathered at the end of the
book
into a section titled "Endnotes" or "References," or both, if both are
appropriate.
>
>For footnotes, I recomment placing an asterisk *
and a number (*1) at the appropriate place in the text, spaced as a word (a
space before and a space after). Perhaps the word "FOOTNOTES" could be
placed before the notes are written, again with the asterisk and number (*1) at
the bottom of the page. Since the notes always end at the bottom of a
page, when the person hears the next page number, they will know they are past
the footnotes. This is easily accomplished with Read2Go or an
appropriately-equipped reader if you have a book whose pages are marked and you
go to the next page. This gives the option of skipping footnotes if you
like. And in a Braille file, when the reader reaches the "FOOTNOTES"
designation, he or she can easily go to the next page by searching for the line
of dashes that marks the next page.
>
>I see no purpose for "End of Footnotes."
>
>Sandi
>
>----- Original Message -----
>>From: Roger Loran Bailey
>>To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 8:53
PM
>>Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: VOTE! Efficient Way To Treat/Include Footnote
>>References
>>
>>If you are listening to a synthetic voice read the text it is not
>>necessarily clear. These speech programs do not announce blank lines. They
>>just keep reading. Anyway, I am not sure that the blank line is there before
>>and after the page break. I think the reason that we add those blank lines is
>> to protect any text or page numbers from being removed by the Bookshare
>>automatic tools. Those tools will remove the blank lines. A synthetic voice
>>does not announce page breaks either. Those are used for navigation, but as
>>the machine reads along you hear only the page number and if you are
>>listening to footnotes which are numbered anyway I think that page number
>>right after one or more numbered paragraphs might confuse.
>>
>>On 3/19/2012 9:21 PM,
Cindy wrote:
>>I vote for not using the phrase end footnote. Actually, since they're at the
>>end the page and thus would be followed by a page break and a new page they
>>shouldn'tt be necessary. Even is the page number is at the end of the page
>>and not at the top, there is a space between the last line of the footnote
>>and the page number so it would be clear that the footnote has ended.
>>>
>>>
>>>Cindy
>>>Join us in celebrating our 10th Anniversary!
>>>
>>>TinyURL.com/752cyrs
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>From: Sue Stevens <siss52@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 4:04 PM
>>>>Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: VOTE! Efficient Way To Treat/Include
>>>>Footnote References
>>>>
>>>>Let's get rid of
it!!!
>>>>
>>>>Sue S.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message----- From: Mayrie
ReNae
>>>>Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 5:47 PM
>>>>To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>Subject:
[bksvol-discuss] Re: VOTE! Efficient Way To Treat/Include Footnote
References
>>>>
>>>>Hi Sue,
>>>>
>>>>That is what I thought. But because
others spoke up loudly for the words
>>>>being placed there, that is what
was recommended that we do.
>>>>
>>>>Should we revisit this and opt not to
have the "end footnote" phrase? I
>>>>personally would love to see
that happen.
>>>>
>>>>We do want the best solution for the most
people. And if Bookshare didn't
>>>>ever change, we wouldn't be where
we are today.
>>>>
>>>>If the topic of how to handle footnote citations at
the end of the page is
>>>>revisited, please limit your comments to either
of the following statements:
>>>>
>>>>Keep "end footnote"
>>>>or "End
footnote" is unnecessary since the closing bracket denotes that.
>>>>
>>>>We
don't want a huge overblown thread, simply a decision.
>>>>
>>>>Those of you
who are gritting your teeth, please forgive me. I too don't
>>>>like
when this kind of thing happens. We've revisited way too many
decisions
>>>>in the past. Let's keep this short and quick.
>>>>
>>>>I'm in
the process of reworking the Scanning and Proofreading Manual to
make
>>>>it more concise, but still as inclusive as possible, as well as
putting all
>>>>of those separate linked pages into one document. If
we're going to change
>>>>this, now would be an optimal time to do
it.
>>>>
>>>>I'll watch through the next two or three days and decide
accordingly about
>>>>what is thought to be most helpful to the most
people, given the smallness
>>>>of our population on this list compared to
the entire Bookshare patronage.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks for all of your tolerance
and patience. We won't revisit this again
>>>>after this
Friday.
>>>>
>>>>Mayrie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Sue Stevens
>>>>Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 2:05 PM
>>>>To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>Subject:
[bksvol-discuss] Re: Efficient Way To Treat/Include
Footnote
>>>>References
>>>>
>>>>It seems unnecessary, in my opinion, to put
the words footnote, and end
>>>>footnote. If the foootnote is in
brackets, the readers will know when they
>>>>end and when they
begin.
>>>>
>>>>Sue S.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: Mayrie
ReNae
>>>>Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 2:38 PM
>>>>To: k1000@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>Cc: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>Subject:
[bksvol-discuss] Re: Efficient Way To Treat/Include
Footnote
>>>>References
>>>>
>>>>Hi Rik,
>>>>
>>>>Please, please don't move
text from one page to another unless it is to join
>>>>a broken word
between two pages to the page on which it begins. And
please
>>>>don't move footnote citations from one page to another when
preparing books
>>>>for Bookshare. This is an altering of the text
that we don't permit.
>>>>
>>>>Also, your handling of footnotes by labeling
them is absolutely fine and
>>>>preferred. You should, however,
please, include that text in brackets like
>>>>this:
>>>>
>>>>[Footnote: Hop
On Pop by Dr. Seuss
>>>>End footnote]
>>>>
>>>>And finally, to give the best
results for all readers please handle
>>>>inserting footnote numbers by
placing them in brackets [] and surrounding
>>>>those by spaces.
Though this is not traditional, it has been stated as the
>>>>way that
works best for braille readers of Bookshare books who don't have
>>>>access
to superscripted numbers, and sighted readers using the same
books.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks for all of your intense attention to detail!
You folks with the
>>>>patience to tackle this kind of stuff are
marvelous! I have to want to read
>>>>a book so badly that I can
taste it before I'll willingly attempt processing
>>>>this
stuff.
>>>>
>>>>Rock on everyone! We truly do have a devoted,
conscientious, and just plain
>>>>wonderful group of volunteers! We
really value all of you!
>>>>
>>>>Mayrie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original
Message-----
>>>>From: k1000-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>[mailto:k1000-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of ohio1803@xxxxx
>>>>Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012
10:14 AM
>>>>To: k1000@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>Subject: Re:
Efficient Way To Treat/Include Footnote References
>>>>
>>>>Hello
Kane,
>>>>
>>>>Wow, as many as 20 citation notes on each page? That is
pretty dense, isn't
>>>>it.
>>>>
>>>>I sure do not know about setting up
K-1000 to do this stuff automatically.
>>>>Maybe. But I don't know. And
even if so, it seems that the likelihood it
>>>>might do it wrong is pretty
likely, too. Thereby changing something that
>>>>might negatively impact
the citation. And if you do happen to be a Bookshare
>>>>member who is
reading this type of content and want the citation, then that
>>>>is not
good. Not to mention the publisher agreements.
>>>>
>>>>My 2 cents are maybe
just for others to hear and see what they think.
>>>>I'm not exactly sure,
officially.
>>>>
>>>>I have the following ideas to tell you. I have scanned
with footnotes and
>>>>citations on the same page.
>>>>Two ways.
>>>>
>>>>In
one method, I have moved the citations, to the end of the chapter
or
>>>>section in which they are.
>>>>But when I do, I try to make good and
sure that the citation number with the
>>>>text in the page is clear and
that the citation is correct.
>>>>Moving text in this way does allow the
reader to move through the content
>>>>and not be interrupted with the
narrative so much. This is also something
>>>>you can do with photograph
captions. Caution. Anytime we do this type of
>>>>thing, however,
great care to make sure you do it without omission or
>>>>errors.
>>>>
>>>>In
the other method, I leave the citations on the same page, and just
make
>>>>sure that the citation numbers are as stated in the manual. If you
have a
>>>>number right up beside the period, it is clear that there is a
citation for
>>>>it. I have not yet put that number in a bracket. But
maybe I should. So I
>>>>did not know about that.
>>>>
>>>>But down below
with the citation, I do this, which I do not think is in the
>>>>manual. I
put the word "footnote" in that bracket. For example, [footnote
#
>>>>1: Alfred's Good Rule of Thumb, 1997. end footnote # 1]. Maybe
this is
>>>>wrong, and I should never do it again.
>>>>
>>>>But, for me, at
least, this seems to clearly indicate as I am reading that
>>>>this is the
citation to the above content.
>>>>(The insertion of the word "footnote," I
mean.) But it is probably not
>>>>altogether necessary. Maybe a bothersome
thing to hear for another reader .
>>>>
>>>>Also...
>>>>
>>>>In either case,
for me what I try to do is to make sure that the page ends
>>>>in a
complete sentence. Whether that means grabbing the end of a
sentence
>>>>from the next page and pasting with the text at the end of the
page, or vice
>>>>versa, moving the incomplete sentence to paste with the
rest on the next
>>>>page. For me, this is the thing I most like to find in
Bookshare books I
>>>>download and read. That I don't have to lose my
train of thought on a
>>>>broken up sentence. But of course a lot of
times you just have to be paying
>>>>enough attention as you read, and
notice you had a broken sentence and go
>>>>find the rest of
it.
>>>>
>>>>Sorry I got sort of long.
>>>>But I hope that helps and makes
some sense.
>>>>
>>>>Really, when tackling these types of books, I think you
kind of need to know
>>>>they will take this kind of detailed effort. If
you do not want to fool with
>>>>all of it, perhaps choosing books without
so darned much citations is a
>>>>better fit. Especially when we are
putting them in this permanent collection
>>>>for the members. If I do it
for my own personal reading I often skip all
>>>>that stuff,
too.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Thanks
>>>>
>>>>Rik
James
>>>>
>>>>*******************************************************
>>>>To
find out how to unsubscribe, please visit:
>>>>http://www.kurzweiledu.com/support_listserv_signup.asp
>>>>
>>>>-----Original
Message-----
>>>>From: k1000-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>[mailto:k1000-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of ohio1803@xxxxx
>>>>Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012
10:14 AM
>>>>To: k1000@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>Subject: Re:
Efficient Way To Treat/Include Footnote References
>>>>
>>>>Hello
Kane,
>>>>
>>>>Wow, as many as 20 citation notes on each page? That is
pretty dense, isn't
>>>>it.
>>>>
>>>>I sure do not know about setting up
K-1000 to do this stuff automatically.
>>>>Maybe. But I don't know. And
even if so, it seems that the likelihood it
>>>>might do it wrong is pretty
likely, too. Thereby changing something that
>>>>might negatively impact
the citation. And if you do happen to be a Bookshare
>>>>member who is
reading this type of content and want the citation, then that
>>>>is not
good. Not to mention the publisher agreements.
>>>>
>>>>My 2 cents are maybe
just for others to hear and see what they think.
>>>>I'm not exactly sure,
officially.
>>>>
>>>>I have the following ideas to tell you. I have scanned
with footnotes and
>>>>citations on the same page.
>>>>Two ways.
>>>>
>>>>In
one method, I have moved the citations, to the end of the chapter
or
>>>>section in which they are.
>>>>But when I do, I try to make good and
sure that the citation number with the
>>>>text in the page is clear and
that the citation is correct.
>>>>Moving text in this way does allow the
reader to move through the content
>>>>and not be interrupted with the
narrative so much. This is also something
>>>>you can do with photograph
captions. Caution. Anytime we do this type of
>>>>thing, however,
great care to make sure you do it without omission or
>>>>errors.
>>>>
>>>>In
the other method, I leave the citations on the same page, and just
make
>>>>sure that the citation numbers are as stated in the manual. If you
have a
>>>>number right up beside the period, it is clear that there is a
citation for
>>>>it. I have not yet put that number in a bracket. But
maybe I should. So I
>>>>did not know about that.
>>>>
>>>>But down below
with the citation, I do this, which I do not think is in the
>>>>manual. I
put the word "footnote" in that bracket. For example, [footnote
#
>>>>1: Alfred's Good Rule of Thumb, 1997. end footnote # 1]. Maybe
this is
>>>>wrong, and I should never do it again.
>>>>
>>>>But, for me, at
least, this seems to clearly indicate as I am reading that
>>>>this is the
citation to the above content.
>>>>(The insertion of the word "footnote," I
mean.) But it is probably not
>>>>altogether necessary. Maybe a bothersome
thing to hear for another reader .
>>>>
>>>>Also...
>>>>
>>>>In either case,
for me what I try to do is to make sure that the page ends
>>>>in a
complete sentence. Whether that means grabbing the end of a
sentence
>>>>from the next page and pasting with the text at the end of the
page, or vice
>>>>versa, moving the incomplete sentence to paste with the
rest on the next
>>>>page. For me, this is the thing I most like to find in
Bookshare books I
>>>>download and read. That I don't have to lose my
train of thought on a
>>>>broken up sentence. But of course a lot of
times you just have to be paying
>>>>enough attention as you read, and
notice you had a broken sentence and go
>>>>find the rest of
it.
>>>>
>>>>Sorry I got sort of long.
>>>>But I hope that helps and makes
some sense.
>>>>
>>>>Really, when tackling these types of books, I think you
kind of need to know
>>>>they will take this kind of detailed effort. If
you do not want to fool with
>>>>all of it, perhaps choosing books without
so darned much citations is a
>>>>better fit. Especially when we are
putting them in this permanent collection
>>>>for the members. If I do it
for my own personal reading I often skip all
>>>>that stuff,
too.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Thanks
>>>>
>>>>Rik
James
>>>>
>>>>*******************************************************
>>>>To
find out how to unsubscribe, please visit:
>>>>http://www.kurzweiledu.com/support_listserv_signup.asp
>>>>
>>>>To
unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to
>>>>bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>put the
word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a list
of
>>>>available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the subject
line.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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Database: 2114/4880 - Release Date: 03/19/12
>>>>
>>>>To unsubscribe from
this list send a blank Email to
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>>>>
>>>>To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to
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available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the subject
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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Database: 2114/4880 - Release Date: 03/19/12
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list send a blank Email to
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>
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