[bksvol-discuss] Re: VOTE! Efficient Way To Treat/Include Footnote References

Didn't this whole discussion start with Kane's mention of endnotes, which are a 
completely different animal from footnotes?  There are generally only one or 
two--or sometimes three--footnotes at the end of any given page.  Endnotes are 
the numbers placed within text that refer the reader to further information or 
reference materials (usually placed at the end of the book) on the topic.  In 
this case, what we need to decide is how the numbers will be denoted within the 
text so that they refer to a section at the end of the book titled "Endnotes" 
or "References" or both.  

The reason the Bookshare tool strips superscripts is that, in Braille, they 
cannot be used.  They look nice in print, but they don't exist in Braille.  And 
in audio it would be impossible to note where they fell on the line, I'd think.

For endnotes, which started this topic, I'd recommend that each number be 
spaced one space from the period (otherwise it creates a decimal point in the 
Braille text), placed in either parentheses or brackets (a note could be added 
at the beginning of the book to state how they're handled), and the endnotes or 
references gathered at the end of the book into a section titled "Endnotes" or 
"References," or both, if both are appropriate.

For footnotes, I recomment placing an asterisk * and a number (*1) at the 
appropriate place in the text, spaced as a word (a space before and a space 
after).  Perhaps the word "FOOTNOTES" could be placed before the notes are 
written, again with the asterisk and number (*1) at the bottom of the page.  
Since the notes always end at the bottom of a page, when the person hears the 
next page number, they will know they are past the footnotes.  This is easily 
accomplished with Read2Go or an appropriately-equipped reader if you have a 
book whose pages are marked and you go to the next page.  This gives the option 
of skipping footnotes if you like.  And in a Braille file, when the reader 
reaches the "FOOTNOTES" designation, he or she can easily go to the next page 
by searching for the line of dashes that marks the next page.

I see no purpose for "End of Footnotes."  

Sandi

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Roger Loran Bailey 
  To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 8:53 PM
  Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: VOTE! Efficient Way To Treat/Include Footnote 
References


  If you are listening to a synthetic voice read the text it is not necessarily 
clear. These speech programs do not announce blank lines. They just keep 
reading. Anyway, I am not sure that the blank line is there before and after 
the page break. I think the reason that we add those blank lines is to protect 
any text or page numbers from being removed by the Bookshare automatic tools. 
Those tools will remove the blank lines. A synthetic voice does not announce 
page breaks either. Those are used for navigation, but as the machine reads 
along you hear only the page number and if you are listening to footnotes which 
are numbered anyway I think that page number right after one or more numbered 
paragraphs might confuse.

  On 3/19/2012 9:21 PM, Cindy wrote: 
    I vote for not using the phrase end footnote. Actually, since they're at 
the end the page and thus would be followed by a page break and a new page they 
shouldn'tt be necessary. Even is the page number is at the end of the page and 
not at the top, there is a space between the last line of the footnote and the 
page number so it would be clear that the footnote has ended.


    Cindy
    Join us in celebrating our 10th Anniversary! 

    TinyURL.com/752cyrs

     



      From: Sue Stevens <siss52@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
      To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
      Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 4:04 PM
      Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: VOTE! Efficient Way To Treat/Include 
Footnote References


      Let's get rid of it!!!

      Sue S.


      -----Original Message----- From: Mayrie ReNae
      Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 5:47 PM
      To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
      Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: VOTE! Efficient Way To Treat/Include 
Footnote References

      Hi Sue,

      That is what I thought. But because others spoke up loudly for the words
      being placed there, that is what was recommended that we do.

      Should we revisit this and opt not to have the "end footnote" phrase?  I
      personally would love to see that happen.

      We do want the best solution for the most people.  And if Bookshare didn't
      ever change, we wouldn't be where we are today.

      If the topic of how to handle footnote citations at the end of the page is
      revisited, please limit your comments to either of the following 
statements:

      Keep "end footnote"
      or "End footnote" is unnecessary since the closing bracket denotes that.

      We don't want a huge overblown thread, simply a decision.

      Those of you who are gritting your teeth, please forgive me.  I too don't
      like when this kind of thing happens. We've revisited way too many 
decisions
      in the past. Let's keep this short and quick.

      I'm in the process of reworking the Scanning and Proofreading Manual to 
make
      it more concise, but still as inclusive as possible, as well as putting 
all
      of those separate linked pages into one document.  If we're going to 
change
      this, now would be an optimal time to do it.

      I'll watch through the next two or three days and decide accordingly about
      what is thought to be most helpful to the most people, given the smallness
      of our population on this list compared to the entire Bookshare patronage.

      Thanks for all of your tolerance and patience. We won't revisit this again
      after this Friday.

      Mayrie



      -----Original Message-----
      From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
      [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Sue Stevens
      Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 2:05 PM
      To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
      Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Efficient Way To Treat/Include Footnote
      References

      It seems unnecessary, in my opinion, to put the words footnote, and end
      footnote.  If the foootnote is in brackets, the readers will know when 
they
      end and when they begin.

      Sue S.


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Mayrie ReNae
      Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 2:38 PM
      To: k1000@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
      Cc: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
      Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Efficient Way To Treat/Include Footnote
      References

      Hi Rik,

      Please, please don't move text from one page to another unless it is to 
join
      a broken word between two pages to the page on which it begins.  And 
please
      don't move footnote citations from one page to another when preparing 
books
      for Bookshare.  This is an altering of the text that we don't permit.

      Also, your handling of footnotes by labeling them is absolutely fine and
      preferred.  You should, however, please, include that text in brackets 
like
      this:

      [Footnote: Hop On Pop by Dr. Seuss
      End footnote]

      And finally, to give the best results for all readers please handle
      inserting footnote numbers by placing them in brackets [] and surrounding
      those by spaces.  Though this is not traditional, it has been stated as 
the
      way that works best for braille readers of Bookshare books who don't have
      access to superscripted numbers, and sighted readers using the same books.

      Thanks for all of your intense attention to detail!  You folks with the
      patience to tackle this kind of stuff are marvelous!  I have to want to 
read
      a book so badly that I can taste it before I'll willingly attempt 
processing
      this stuff.

      Rock on everyone!  We truly do have a devoted, conscientious, and just 
plain
      wonderful group of volunteers!  We really value all of you!

      Mayrie



      -----Original Message-----
      From: k1000-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
      [mailto:k1000-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of ohio1803@xxxxx
      Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 10:14 AM
      To: k1000@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
      Subject: Re: Efficient Way To Treat/Include Footnote References

      Hello Kane,

      Wow, as many as 20 citation notes on each page? That is pretty dense, 
isn't
      it.

      I sure do not know about setting up K-1000 to do this stuff automatically.
      Maybe. But I don't know. And even if so, it seems that the likelihood it
      might do it wrong is pretty likely, too. Thereby changing something that
      might negatively impact the citation. And if you do happen to be a 
Bookshare
      member who is reading this type of content and want the citation, then 
that
      is not good. Not to mention the publisher agreements.

      My 2 cents are maybe just for others to hear and see what they think.
      I'm not exactly sure, officially.

      I have the following ideas to tell you. I have scanned with footnotes and
      citations on the same page.
      Two ways.

      In one method, I have moved the citations, to the end of the chapter or
      section in which they are.
      But when I do, I try to make good and sure that the citation number with 
the
      text in the page is clear and that the citation is correct.
      Moving text in this way does allow the reader to move through the content
      and not be interrupted with the narrative so much. This is also something
      you can do with photograph captions.  Caution. Anytime we do this type of
      thing, however, great care to make sure you do it without omission or
      errors.

      In the other method, I leave the citations on the same page, and just make
      sure that the citation numbers are as stated in the manual. If you have a
      number right up beside the period, it is clear that there is a citation 
for
      it.  I have not yet put that number in a bracket. But maybe I should. So I
      did not know about that.

      But down below with the citation, I do this, which I do not think is in 
the
      manual. I put the word "footnote" in that bracket.  For example, 
[footnote #
      1: Alfred's Good Rule of Thumb, 1997. end footnote # 1].  Maybe this is
      wrong, and I should never do it again.

      But, for me, at least, this seems to clearly indicate as I am reading that
      this is the citation to the above content.
      (The insertion of the word "footnote," I mean.) But it is probably not
      altogether necessary. Maybe a bothersome thing to hear for another reader 
.

      Also...

      In either case, for me what I try to do is to make sure that the page ends
      in a complete sentence.  Whether that means grabbing the end of a sentence
      from the next page and pasting with the text at the end of the page, or 
vice
      versa, moving the incomplete sentence to paste with the rest on the next
      page. For me, this is the thing I most like to find in Bookshare books I
      download and read.  That I don't have to lose my train of thought on a
      broken up sentence.  But of course a lot of times you just have to be 
paying
      enough attention as you read, and notice you had a broken sentence and go
      find the rest of it.

      Sorry I got sort of long.
      But I hope that helps and makes some sense.

      Really, when tackling these types of books, I think you kind of need to 
know
      they will take this kind of detailed effort. If you do not want to fool 
with
      all of it, perhaps choosing books without so darned much citations is a
      better fit. Especially when we are putting them in this permanent 
collection
      for the members. If I do it for my own personal reading I often skip all
      that stuff, too.



      Thanks

      Rik James

      *******************************************************
      To find out how to unsubscribe, please visit:
      http://www.kurzweiledu.com/support_listserv_signup.asp

      -----Original Message-----
      From: k1000-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
      [mailto:k1000-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of ohio1803@xxxxx
      Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 10:14 AM
      To: k1000@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
      Subject: Re: Efficient Way To Treat/Include Footnote References

      Hello Kane,

      Wow, as many as 20 citation notes on each page? That is pretty dense, 
isn't
      it.

      I sure do not know about setting up K-1000 to do this stuff automatically.
      Maybe. But I don't know. And even if so, it seems that the likelihood it
      might do it wrong is pretty likely, too. Thereby changing something that
      might negatively impact the citation. And if you do happen to be a 
Bookshare
      member who is reading this type of content and want the citation, then 
that
      is not good. Not to mention the publisher agreements.

      My 2 cents are maybe just for others to hear and see what they think.
      I'm not exactly sure, officially.

      I have the following ideas to tell you. I have scanned with footnotes and
      citations on the same page.
      Two ways.

      In one method, I have moved the citations, to the end of the chapter or
      section in which they are.
      But when I do, I try to make good and sure that the citation number with 
the
      text in the page is clear and that the citation is correct.
      Moving text in this way does allow the reader to move through the content
      and not be interrupted with the narrative so much. This is also something
      you can do with photograph captions.  Caution. Anytime we do this type of
      thing, however, great care to make sure you do it without omission or
      errors.

      In the other method, I leave the citations on the same page, and just make
      sure that the citation numbers are as stated in the manual. If you have a
      number right up beside the period, it is clear that there is a citation 
for
      it.  I have not yet put that number in a bracket. But maybe I should. So I
      did not know about that.

      But down below with the citation, I do this, which I do not think is in 
the
      manual. I put the word "footnote" in that bracket.  For example, 
[footnote #
      1: Alfred's Good Rule of Thumb, 1997. end footnote # 1].  Maybe this is
      wrong, and I should never do it again.

      But, for me, at least, this seems to clearly indicate as I am reading that
      this is the citation to the above content.
      (The insertion of the word "footnote," I mean.) But it is probably not
      altogether necessary. Maybe a bothersome thing to hear for another reader 
.

      Also...

      In either case, for me what I try to do is to make sure that the page ends
      in a complete sentence.  Whether that means grabbing the end of a sentence
      from the next page and pasting with the text at the end of the page, or 
vice
      versa, moving the incomplete sentence to paste with the rest on the next
      page. For me, this is the thing I most like to find in Bookshare books I
      download and read.  That I don't have to lose my train of thought on a
      broken up sentence.  But of course a lot of times you just have to be 
paying
      enough attention as you read, and notice you had a broken sentence and go
      find the rest of it.

      Sorry I got sort of long.
      But I hope that helps and makes some sense.

      Really, when tackling these types of books, I think you kind of need to 
know
      they will take this kind of detailed effort. If you do not want to fool 
with
      all of it, perhaps choosing books without so darned much citations is a
      better fit. Especially when we are putting them in this permanent 
collection
      for the members. If I do it for my own personal reading I often skip all
      that stuff, too.



      Thanks

      Rik James

      *******************************************************
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