[bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: So when I was browsing Bookshare I saw that...
- From: jlc <whoschu@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 21:42:42 -0700 (PDT)
Roger, Cool history. I had no idea. I just know its hard for me to find the
hard
science fiction I like in the midst of the combined category.
Julie
________________________________
From: Roger Loran Bailey <rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx>
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 9:29:27 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: So when I was browsing Bookshare I saw that...
I consider it a great injustice, but science fiction and fantasy are lumped
together on Bookshare as one category. There is a history behind that. At some
point in the past there was very little American fantasy at all. I may have the
dates wrong, but I think it was in the sixties that the Lord of the Rings by
Tolkien became popular. A certain publisher -- I forget which -- decided to
cash in on that by publishing a line of fantasy books. It was a kind of Tolkien
ripoff. Since they did not have a fantasy line before that time they had no
editor who specialized in the genre, so they assigned one they already had to
do
the job and because they really did not know if fantasy was going to sell they
did not want to create a whole new department for it. Their science fiction
editor was one Lin Carter and Carter was assigned to fantasy and it was lumped
along with the regular work load in with the science fiction. Well, they
apparently never did get around to seperating them even though by now there are
a lot more current fantasy novels on the market than science fiction. It took
long enough, though, that everyone in the publishing industry started
identifying the two genres together. The fact that Bookshare, bookstores and
libraries still lump them together is a legacy of that history.
As for the Pern novels, the dragons are a life form native to another planet,
the planet of Pern. They evolved there and are, within the context of the
novels, considered to be manifestations of the natural universe. They are
called
dragons because when humans arrived on Pern to colonize the planet those life
forms reminded them of dragons of myth. They reminded them of mythical dragons
because of their physical form and because of certain behavioral traits. In
most
stories in which creatures called dragons appear they are assumed to actually
be
the supernatural dragons of myth. That is why, despite the use of the word
dragon, the Pern novels are science fiction. Since most stories that have
creatures called dragons in them are fantasy people who have not read the Pern
novels tend to assume that they are fantasy.
_ _ _
"One of the things that is wrong with religion is that it teaches us to be
satisfied with answers which are not really answers at all." - Richard Dawkins
Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rogerbailey81
The Militant:
http://www.themilitant.com
Pathfinder Press:
http://www.pathfinderpress.com
Granma International:
http://www.granma.cu/ingles/index.html
----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy" <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2011 12:04 AM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: So when I was browsing Bookshare I saw that...
hmm. Thanks, Roger. I guess it must have been The Girl Who Heard Dragons (I
always pre-proofed books I submitted, in the days when I began at bookshare by
submitting. I thought it was fantasy; I can't remember enough about it to know
why it would have been science fiction, but then maybe it's the later books
that
are science-fiction?
I think, between what Roger has said and what was explained to me earlier, I'll
be able to tell the difference between fantasy and science fiction; if I can't,
then I shouldn't be one to identify PQ categories--or are science fiction nand
fantasy one category? Of if I weren't certain, would I be able to ask one of
you to help me decide? I'd go by the Amazon synopses and description
ofcategory
Cindy
--- On Fri, 5/13/11, Roger Loran Bailey <rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> From: Roger Loran Bailey <rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx>
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: So when I was browsing Bookshare I saw
>that...
> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Date: Friday, May 13, 2011, 7:15 PM
> Here is the difference Cindy. Both
> fantasy and science fiction are speculative fiction. That
> is, the question is asked, what if ... then .... The premise
> following the word if is likely to be a fantastic element.
> That which follows the word then is the story. A fantastic
> element is a thing, event or being that is outside of our
> experience and may not be theoretically possible or even
> possible at all. The difference lies in the nature of the
> fantastic element or elements. The word science in science
> fiction is not there for nothing. Science deals with the
> real universe that we find ourselves in. That means that if
> the fantastic elements in a story of speculative fiction are
> assumed within the context of the story to be manifestations
> of the real universe then the story is a science fiction
> story. If the fantastic elements are assumed within the
> context of the story to be supernatural then you are reading
> a fantasy. The difference is profound. It is the difference
> between riding an airplane and riding a magic carpet. That
> is why -- even though all genres tend to overlap a bit
> -- science fiction and fantasy are about as far apart
> as any two literary genres can be.
>
>
> _ _ _
>
> "One of the things that is wrong with religion is that it
> teaches us to be satisfied with answers which are not really
> answers at all." - Richard Dawkins
>
> Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rogerbailey81
>
>
> The Militant:
> http://www.themilitant.com
> Pathfinder Press:
> http://www.pathfinderpress.com
> Granma International:
> http://www.granma.cu/ingles/index.html
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy" <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 9:51 PM
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: So when I was browsing
> Bookshare I saw that...
>
>
> o.k. I, too don't know what a user tag; please explain
> Cindy
> P.S. I proofed, I think, a long time ago, one of the
> dragons of Pern novels, but when I clicked
> on my name I only found one I submitted and the synopsis
> doesn't sound like the story I vaguely remember. Anyway, I
> thought the story I read and series were fantasy, but
> then I haven't always been able to tell the difference,
> though in the receent past, when I wondered about some
> books, people explained to me how to tell.
> Cindy
>
> --- On Fri, 5/13/11, Roger Loran Bailey <rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx>
> wrote:
>
> > From: Roger Loran Bailey <rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx>
> > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: So when I was
> browsing Bookshare I saw that...
> > To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Date: Friday, May 13, 2011, 5:09 PM
> > I am not familiar with Dragonsdawn,
> > but if that is the premise then I would
> > expect that that would be another one that would be
> > frequently
> > miscategorized as fantasy. With the user tag system,
> > though, that could be
> > quickly corrected.
> >
> >
> > _ _ _
> >
> > "One of the things that is wrong with religion is that
> it
> > teaches us to be
> > satisfied with answers which are not really answers
> at
> > all." - Richard
> > Dawkins
> >
> > Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rogerbailey81
> >
> >
> > The Militant:
> > http://www.themilitant.com
> > Pathfinder Press:
> > http://www.pathfinderpress.com
> > Granma International:
> > http://www.granma.cu/ingles/index.html
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kim Friedman"
> <kimfri11@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 7:58 PM
> > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: So when I was
> browsing
> > Bookshare I saw
> > that...
> >
> >
> > > Hi, Roger, I'd say that people who tag books
> should be
> > familiar with
> > > their content so the information is accurate.
> Great
> > catch with the
> > > McCaffrey books. I don't know if you ever read
> > Dragonsdawn, but dragons
> > > were genetically modified fire lizards (at least
> I
> > think that's the
> > > premise). Regards, Kim Friedman.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > On Behalf Of Roger Loran
> > > Bailey
> > > Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 4:48 PM
> > > To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: So when I was
> > browsing Bookshare I saw
> > > that...
> > >
> > >
> > > There is always the danger of vandalism, but it
> > appears that at
> > > Wikipedia it
> > > is removed very quickly. Wikipedia, though, has a
> very
> > large participant
> > >
> > > community. I have a watch list there and when I
> check
> > it I am always
> > > hoping
> > > to get a chance to delete vandalism, but I notice
> that
> > when it does
> > > happen
> > > someone removes it usually within five minutes or
> so.
> > At least twice,
> > > though, I was quick enough to remove it myself.
> > Wikipedia is not the
> > > model
> > > that I am thinking of for Bookshare though. As I
> said,
> > I am thinking of
> > > Open
> > > Library as the model. I have never seen a tag
> there
> > that appeared to be
> > > deliberate vandalism and even at Wikipedia the
> > deliberate vandalism is
> > > only
> > > a very small minority of the edits. I do disagree
> with
> > some of the Open
> > > Library tags now and then though. Recently I was
> > looking at The Dolphins
> > > of
> > > Pern by Anne McCaffrey. One of the subject tags
> > identified it as a
> > > fantasy.
> > > Well, a lot of people think the Pern novels are
> > fantasy because most of
> > > them
> > > have the word dragon in the title and dragons are
> a
> > fantasy trophe. If
> > > you
> > > actually read the books, though, it will be
> apparent
> > that they are not
> > > fantasy. I improved the Open Library listing by
> > removing the fantasy tag
> > > and
> > > replacing it with a science fiction tag. This
> > illustrates the fact that
> > > the
> > > tagging process is a continuously dynamic thing.
> Tags
> > that are there one
> > > day
> > > may be gone the next day and nothing is set in
> stone.
> > I suppose some
> > > people
> > > might consider this to be a disadvantage, but it
> does
> > not strike me as
> > > much
> > > of one since mistakes can always be made and the
> real
> > disadvantage would
> > > be
> > > to be stuck with those mistakes. I do think that
> this
> > would be a very
> > > strong
> > > remedy for the problems we have with the
> Bookshare
> > classification
> > > system.
> > > Want a subcategory? Add it. Find a book that has
> not
> > been categorized?
> > > Categorize it on the spot.
> > >
> > >
> > > _ _ _
> > >
> > > "One of the things that is wrong with religion is
> that
> > it teaches us to
> > > be
> > > satisfied with answers which are not really
> answers at
> > all." - Richard
> > > Dawkins
> > >
> > > Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rogerbailey81
> > >
> > >
> > > The Militant:
> > > http://www.themilitant.com
> > > Pathfinder Press:
> > > http://www.pathfinderpress.com
> > > Granma International:
> > > http://www.granma.cu/ingles/index.html
> > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Regina
> Alvarado" <regina.alvarado6@xxxxxxxxx>
> > > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 4:56 PM
> > > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: So when I was
> > browsing Bookshare I saw
> > >
> > > that...
> > >
> > >
> > >>I have seen this. Sometimes I wonder if what
> > is put in is true, but it
> > >>seems to be, and as you said Roger tags
> giving
> > incorrect information
> > > can be
> > >>removed. I like that idea. Scott? Think
> > we could someday?
> > >> Reggie
> > >>
> > >>
> > --------------------------------------------------
> > >> From: "Roger Loran Bailey" <rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx>
> > >> Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 11:17 AM
> > >> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: So when I
> was
> > browsing Bookshare I
> > >> saw
> > >> that...
> > >>
> > >>> A number of sites have user added tags,
> like
> > Paperbackswap.com,
> > >>> Amazon or
> > >>> OpenLibrary.org. Open Library uses them
> in a
> > way that is closest to
> > > what
> > >>> I think Bookshare should have. At Open
> Library
> > they are trying to
> > > create
> > >>> a page full of bibliographic data for
> every
> > book that has ever been
> > >>> published. So far they have just short of
> 25
> > million listings, most
> > > of
> > >>> which have been gathered with bots. That
> means
> > that a lot of that
> > >>> bibliographic data is inconsistent or
> > incomplete. They, therefore,
> > > invite
> > >>> anyone who might be browsing their site
> to
> > improve the entries. It is
> > >
> > >>> similar to Wikipedia in that respect. One
> can
> > add a description,
> > >>> publishing history, tables of contents,
> number
> > of pages and so forth.
> > > One
> > >>> of the things that is editable by users
> is
> > categorization. They have
> > >>> categories of tags already available such
> as
> > topics, dates, places or
> > >
> > >>> people mentioned in the book. The user
> will
> > simply type in the
> > > missing
> > >>> category and click save. Then on the page
> for
> > the book that category
> > > will
> > >>> be displayed. Click that tag and every
> book
> > that any user has given
> > > that
> > >>> tag for will appear. When you search the
> > entire collection for any
> > > key
> > >>> word you want, at the bottom of the
> results is
> > a list of tags that
> > >>> various users have given books in your
> search
> > results. You can then
> > >>> narrow your search by clicking any of
> those
> > tags. I think that would
> > > be
> > >>> an excellent solution for Bookshare for
> both
> > the books that have a
> > >>> paucity of categorization and for the
> paucity
> > of categories
> > > available.
> > >>> Bookshare has a number of categories as
> it is,
> > but I am sure that you
> > > or
> > >>> anyone else could think of additional
> > categories that would be
> > > helpful or
> > >>> subcategories within any of these
> categories,
> > The problem with that,
> > >>> though, is that the category structure
> would
> > become entirely
> > > unwieldy.
> > >>> With user generated tags, though, as
> many
> > categories and
> > > subcategories as
> > >>> you could think of could be added and, if
> you
> > thought any of them was
> > >
> > >>> inappropriate, could be removed.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> _ _
> > _
> > >>>
> > >>> "One of the things that is wrong with
> religion
> > is that it teaches us
> > >>> to
> > >>> be satisfied with answers which are not
> really
> > answers at all." -
> > > Richard
> > >>> Dawkins
> > >>>
> > >>> Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rogerbailey81
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> The Militant:
> > >>> http://www.themilitant.com
> > >>> Pathfinder Press:
> > >>> http://www.pathfinderpress.com
> > >>> Granma International:
> > >>> http://www.granma.cu/ingles/index.html
> > >>> ----- Original Message -----
> > >>> From: "Regina Alvarado" <regina.alvarado6@xxxxxxxxx>
> > >>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >>> Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 10:34 AM
> > >>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: So when
> I
> > was browsing Bookshare I
> > > saw
> > >>> that...
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> Roger:
> > >>>> What is a user added tag? Enlighten
> this
> > fossil, please. Thanks
> > >>>> Curious in Dearborn Heights
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > --------------------------------------------------
> > >>>> From: "Roger Loran Bailey" <rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx>
> > >>>> Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 10:29 AM
> > >>>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: So
> when
> > I was browsing Bookshare I
> > >
> > >>>> saw
> > >>>> that...
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> I have noticed that a lot of
> publisher
> > quality books have a paucity
> > >
> > >>>>> of
> > >>>>> metadata. I wonder if making a
> quality
> > report with the suggested
> > >>>>> categorization would help. By the
> way,
> > I think this is an
> > > additional
> > >>>>> argument for my idea of user
> added
> > tags.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> _ _
> > _
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> "One of the things that is wrong
> with
> > religion is that it teaches
> > >>>>> us to
> > >>>>> be satisfied with answers which
> are
> > not really answers at all." -
> > >>>>> Richard Dawkins
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rogerbailey81
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The Militant:
> > >>>>> http://www.themilitant.com
> > >>>>> Pathfinder Press:
> > >>>>> http://www.pathfinderpress.com
> > >>>>> Granma International: http://www.granma.cu/ingles/index.html
> > >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: "Nat Barrett" <hawaiianstar@xxxxxxxxx>
> > >>>>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >>>>> Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 7:16
> AM
> > >>>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] OT: So
> when
> > I was browsing Bookshare I
> > > saw
> > >>>>> that...
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Hello,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I was wondering about something.
> And I
> > didn't know where else to
> > > throw
> > >>>>> this out except the volunteer
> list.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Anyway, just now I clicked on the
> new
> > to collection page. I was
> > >>>>> surprised to see quite a few
> publisher
> > quality Harlequin books.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The thing is, I didn't remember
> seeing
> > them earlier, when I cruised
> > >
> > >>>>> through the romance category
> Thursday
> > afternoon.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Thinking maybe they were
> recently
> > added since the date of addition
> > > was
> > >>>>> 5/13/2011 and where I am it's
> only a
> > little after 1 a.m. Friday
> > > morning
> > >>>>> as I type this, I thought maybe
> it was
> > very recent.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> However, I clicked to browse the
> > romance category again, and I was
> > >>>>> correct. Those books I saw on the
> new
> > to collection page were not
> > >>>>> listed in the romance category.
> In
> > fact, when I clicked on one of
> > > the
> > >>>>> books listed on the new to
> collection
> > page, they didn't have a
> > > category
> > >>>>> selected at all. Or at least, not
> that
> > I saw.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Is this a simple oversight or is
> there
> > a reason for this? I'm just
> > > a
> > >>>>> little confused because normally
> when
> > I want a romance, I look at
> > > the
> > >>>>> romance category page for new
> > additions.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I'll work through this if this is
> the
> > way. But I'm going to find it
> > > a
> > >>>>> little more time consuming to
> check
> > out what's done by Harlequin
> > > and
> > >>>>> what's a fiction novel with
> heavy
> > romantic influence. If that makes
> > >
> > >>>>> sense to everyone. Lol.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Thanks for listening to me
> ramble,
> > >>>>> Natalie
> > >>>>> To unsubscribe from this list
> send a
> > blank Email to
> > >>>>> bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >>>>> put the word 'unsubscribe' by
> itself
> > in the subject line. To get a
> > >
> > >>>>> list of available commands, put
> the
> > word 'help' by itself in the
> > >>>>> subject line.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> __________ Information from ESET
> Smart
> > Security, version of virus
> > >>>>> signature database 6119
> (20110513)
> > __________
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The message was checked by ESET
> Smart
> > Security.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> http://www.eset.com
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> To unsubscribe from this list send a
> blank
> > Email to
> > >>>> bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >>>> put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself
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> > the subject line. To get a
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> > >>> To unsubscribe from this list send a
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> > >>> of available commands, put the word
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> > >>> __________ Information from ESET Smart
> > Security, version of virus
> > >>> signature database 6120 (20110513)
> __________
> > >>>
> > >>> The message was checked by ESET Smart
> > Security.
> > >>>
> > >>> http://www.eset.com
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >> To unsubscribe from this list send a blank
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> > to
> > >> bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >> put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the
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