It is called metaphor, Kim. It is how most anything new is named. The exception in your examples is the Indians. They were not named that metaphorically. It so happens that Columbus really thought he was in India.
_ _ _"One of the things that is wrong with religion is that it teaches us to be satisfied with answers which are not really answers at all." - Richard Dawkins
Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rogerbailey81 The Militant: http://www.themilitant.com Pathfinder Press: http://www.pathfinderpress.com Granma International: http://www.granma.cu/ingles/index.html----- Original Message ----- From: "Kim Friedman" <kimfri11@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2011 1:30 AMSubject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: So when I was browsing Bookshare I saw that...
Roger, I think this using familiar names we are used to is a tendency when we meet with something we wish to describe. To give a gastronomic example, artichokes are members of the thistle family. There is a tuber related to sunflowers which is called Jerusalem artichokes or sunchokes. This is confusing because the Jerusalem artichoke in no way resembles the artichoke. In fact one prepares them differently and the cooking techniques differ. The tomato was once called the love apple. It is in a completely different species and family from the apple. Native Americans were called Indians (the thought being that they must have come from India.) I think this sort of foible besets us all the time. So nu, Roger. One more aspect of being human these erroneous naming practices and misidentifications, wouldn't you say? Regards, Kim Friedman. -----Original Message----- From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Roger Loran Bailey Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 9:29 PM To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: So when I was browsing Bookshare I saw that... I consider it a great injustice, but science fiction and fantasy are lumped together on Bookshare as one category. There is a history behind that. At some point in the past there was very little American fantasy at all. I may have the dates wrong, but I think it was in the sixties that the Lord of the Rings by Tolkien became popular. A certain publisher -- I forget which -- decided to cash in on that by publishing a line of fantasy books. It was a kind of Tolkien ripoff. Since they did not have a fantasy line before that time they had no editor who specialized in the genre, so they assigned one they already had to do the job and because they really did not know if fantasy was going to sell they did not want to create a whole new department for it. Their science fiction editor was one Lin Carter and Carter was assigned to fantasy and it was lumped along with the regular work load in with the science fiction. Well, they apparently never did get around to seperating them even though by now there are a lot more current fantasy novels on the market than science fiction. It took long enough, though, that everyone in the publishing industry started identifying the two genres together. The fact that Bookshare, bookstores and libraries still lump them together is a legacy of that history. As for the Pern novels, the dragons are a life form native to another planet, the planet of Pern. They evolved there and are, within the context of the novels, considered to be manifestations of the natural universe. They are called dragons because when humans arrived on Pern to colonize the planet those life forms reminded them of dragons of myth. They reminded them of mythical dragons because of their physical form and because of certain behavioral traits. In most stories in which creatures called dragons appear they are assumed to actually be the supernatural dragons of myth. That is why, despite the use of the word dragon, the Pern novels are science fiction. Since most stories that have creatures called dragons in them are fantasy people who have not read the Pern novels tend to assume that they are fantasy. _ _ _ "One of the things that is wrong with religion is that it teaches us to be satisfied with answers which are not really answers at all." - Richard Dawkins Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rogerbailey81 The Militant: http://www.themilitant.com Pathfinder Press: http://www.pathfinderpress.com Granma International: http://www.granma.cu/ingles/index.html----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy" <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2011 12:04 AM Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: So when I was browsing Bookshare I saw that... hmm. Thanks, Roger. I guess it must have been The Girl Who Heard Dragons (I always pre-proofed books I submitted, in the days when I began at bookshare by submitting. I thought it was fantasy; I can't remember enough about it to know why it would have been science fiction, but then maybe it's the later books that are science-fiction? I think, between what Roger has said and what was explained to me earlier, I'll be able to tell the difference between fantasy and science fiction; if I can't, then I shouldn't be one to identify PQ categories--or are science fiction nand fantasy one category? Of if I weren't certain, would I be able to ask one of you to help me decide? I'd go by the Amazon synopses and description ofcategory Cindy --- On Fri, 5/13/11, Roger Loran Bailey <rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx> wrote:From: Roger Loran Bailey <rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: So when I was browsing Bookshare I saw that... To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Date: Friday, May 13, 2011, 7:15 PM Here is the difference Cindy. Both fantasy and science fiction are speculative fiction. That is, the question is asked, what if ... then .... The premise following the word if is likely to be a fantastic element. That which follows the word then is the story. A fantastic element is a thing, event or being that is outside of our experience and may not be theoretically possible or even possible at all. The difference lies in the nature of the fantastic element or elements. The word science in science fiction is not there for nothing. Science deals with the real universe that we find ourselves in. That means that if the fantastic elements in a story of speculative fiction are assumed within the context of the story to be manifestations of the real universe then the story is a science fiction story. If the fantastic elements are assumed within the context of the story to be supernatural then you are reading a fantasy. The difference is profound. It is the difference between riding an airplane and riding a magic carpet. That is why -- even though all genres tend to overlap a bit -- science fiction and fantasy are about as far apart as any two literary genres can be. _ _ _ "One of the things that is wrong with religion is that it teaches us to be satisfied with answers which are not really answers at all." - Richard Dawkins Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rogerbailey81 The Militant: http://www.themilitant.com Pathfinder Press: http://www.pathfinderpress.com Granma International: http://www.granma.cu/ingles/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy" <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 9:51 PM Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: So when I was browsing Bookshare I saw that... o.k. I, too don't know what a user tag; please explain Cindy P.S. I proofed, I think, a long time ago, one of the dragons of Pern novels, but when I clicked on my name I only found one I submitted and the synopsis doesn't soundlike the story I vaguely remember. Anyway, I thought the story I read and series were fantasy, but then I haven't always been able to tell the difference, though in the receent past, when I wondered about some books, people explained to me how to tell. Cindy --- On Fri, 5/13/11, Roger Loran Bailey <rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx> wrote: > From: Roger Loran Bailey <rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx> > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: So when I was browsing Bookshare I saw that... > To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Date: Friday, May 13, 2011, 5:09 PM > I am not familiar with Dragonsdawn, > but if that is the premise then I would > expect that that would be another one that would be frequently > miscategorized as fantasy. With the user tag system, > though, that could be > quickly corrected. > > > _ _ _ > > "One of the things that is wrong with religion is that it > teaches us to be > satisfied with answers which are not really answers at > all." - Richard > Dawkins > > Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rogerbailey81 > > > The Militant: > http://www.themilitant.com > Pathfinder Press: > http://www.pathfinderpress.com > Granma International: > http://www.granma.cu/ingles/index.html > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kim Friedman" <kimfri11@xxxxxxxxxxx> > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 7:58 PM > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: So when I was browsing > Bookshare I saw > that... > > > > Hi, Roger, I'd say that people who tag books should be > familiar with > > their content so the information is accurate. Great > catch with the > > McCaffrey books. I don't know if you ever read > Dragonsdawn, but dragons > > were genetically modified fire lizards (at least I > think that's the > > premise). Regards, Kim Friedman. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] > On Behalf Of Roger Loran > > Bailey > > Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 4:48 PM > > To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: So when I was > browsing Bookshare I saw > > that... > > > > > > There is always the danger of vandalism, but it > appears that at > > Wikipedia it > > is removed very quickly. Wikipedia, though, has a very > large participant > > > > community. I have a watch list there and when I check > it I am always > > hoping > > to get a chance to delete vandalism, but I notice that > when it does > > happen > > someone removes it usually within five minutes or so. > At least twice, > > though, I was quick enough to remove it myself. > Wikipedia is not the > > model > > that I am thinking of for Bookshare though. As I said, > I am thinking of > > Open > > Library as the model. I have never seen a tag there > that appeared to be > > deliberate vandalism and even at Wikipedia the > deliberate vandalism is > > only > > a very small minority of the edits. I do disagree with > some of the Open > > Library tags now and then though. Recently I was > looking at The Dolphins > > of > > Pern by Anne McCaffrey. One of the subject tags > identified it as a > > fantasy. > > Well, a lot of people think the Pern novels are > fantasy because most of > > them > > have the word dragon in the title and dragons are a > fantasy trophe. If > > you > > actually read the books, though, it will be apparent > that they are not > > fantasy. I improved the Open Library listing by > removing the fantasy tag > > and > > replacing it with a science fiction tag. This > illustrates the fact that > > the > > tagging process is a continuously dynamic thing. Tags > that are there one > > day > > may be gone the next day and nothing is set in stone. > I suppose some > > people > > might consider this to be a disadvantage, but it does > not strike me as > > much > > of one since mistakes can always be made and the real > disadvantage would > > be > > to be stuck with those mistakes. I do think that this > would be a very > > strong > > remedy for the problems we have with the Bookshare > classification > > system. > > Want a subcategory? Add it. Find a book that has not > been categorized? > > Categorize it on the spot. > > > > > > _ _ _ > > > > "One of the things that is wrong with religion is that > it teaches us to > > be > > satisfied with answers which are not really answers at > all." - Richard > > Dawkins > > > > Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rogerbailey81 > > > > > > The Militant: > > http://www.themilitant.com > > Pathfinder Press: > > http://www.pathfinderpress.com > > Granma International: > > http://www.granma.cu/ingles/index.html > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Regina Alvarado" <regina.alvarado6@xxxxxxxxx> > > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > > Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 4:56 PM > > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: So when I was > browsing Bookshare I saw > > > > that... > > > > > >>I have seen this. Sometimes I wonder if what > is put in is true, but it > >>seems to be, and as you said Roger tags giving > incorrect information > > can be > >>removed. I like that idea. Scott? Think > we could someday? > >> Reggie > >> > >> > -------------------------------------------------- > >> From: "Roger Loran Bailey" <rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx> > >> Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 11:17 AM > >> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: So when I was > browsing Bookshare I > >> saw > >> that... > >> > >>> A number of sites have user added tags, like > Paperbackswap.com, > >>> Amazon or > >>> OpenLibrary.org. Open Library uses them in a > way that is closest to > > what > >>> I think Bookshare should have. At Open Library > they are trying to > > create > >>> a page full of bibliographic data for every > book that has ever been > >>> published. So far they have just short of 25 > million listings, most > > of > >>> which have been gathered with bots. That means > that a lot of that > >>> bibliographic data is inconsistent or > incomplete. They, therefore, > > invite > >>> anyone who might be browsing their site to > improve the entries. It is > > > >>> similar to Wikipedia in that respect. One can > add a description, > >>> publishing history, tables of contents, number > of pages and so forth. > > One > >>> of the things that is editable by users is > categorization. They have > >>> categories of tags already available such as > topics, dates, places or > > > >>> people mentioned in the book. The user will > simply type in the > > missing > >>> category and click save. Then on the page for > the book that category > > will > >>> be displayed. Click that tag and every book > that any user has given > > that > >>> tag for will appear. When you search the > entire collection for any > > key > >>> word you want, at the bottom of the results is > a list of tags that > >>> various users have given books in your search > results. You can then > >>> narrow your search by clicking any of those > tags. I think that would > > be > >>> an excellent solution for Bookshare for both > the books that have a > >>> paucity of categorization and for the paucity > of categories > > available. > >>> Bookshare has a number of categories as it is, > but I am sure that you > > or > >>> anyone else could think of additional > categories that would be > > helpful or > >>> subcategories within any of these categories, > The problem with that, > >>> though, is that the category structure would > become entirely > > unwieldy. > >>> With user generated tags, though, as many > categories and > > subcategories as > >>> you could think of could be added and, if you > thought any of them was > > > >>> inappropriate, could be removed. > >>> > >>> > >>> _ _ > _ > >>> > >>> "One of the things that is wrong with religion > is that it teaches us > >>> to > >>> be satisfied with answers which are not really > answers at all." - > > Richard > >>> Dawkins > >>> > >>> Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rogerbailey81 > >>> > >>> > >>> The Militant: > >>> http://www.themilitant.com > >>> Pathfinder Press: > >>> http://www.pathfinderpress.com > >>> Granma International: > >>> http://www.granma.cu/ingles/index.html > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Regina Alvarado" <regina.alvarado6@xxxxxxxxx> > >>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >>> Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 10:34 AM > >>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: So when I > was browsing Bookshare I > > saw > >>> that... > >>> > >>> > >>>> Roger: > >>>> What is a user added tag? Enlighten this > fossil, please. Thanks > >>>> Curious in Dearborn Heights > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > -------------------------------------------------- > >>>> From: "Roger Loran Bailey" <rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx> > >>>> Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 10:29 AM > >>>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: OT: So when > I was browsing Bookshare I > > > >>>> saw > >>>> that... > >>>> > >>>>> I have noticed that a lot of publisher > quality books have a paucity > > > >>>>> of > >>>>> metadata. I wonder if making a quality > report with the suggested > >>>>> categorization would help. By the way, > I think this is an > > additional > >>>>> argument for my idea of user added > tags. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _ _ > _ > >>>>> > >>>>> "One of the things that is wrong with > religion is that it teaches > >>>>> us to > >>>>> be satisfied with answers which are > not really answers at all." - > >>>>> Richard Dawkins > >>>>> > >>>>> Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rogerbailey81 > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> The Militant: > >>>>> http://www.themilitant.com > >>>>> Pathfinder Press: > >>>>> http://www.pathfinderpress.com > >>>>> Granma International: http://www.granma.cu/ingles/index.html > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Nat Barrett" <hawaiianstar@xxxxxxxxx> > >>>>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >>>>> Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 7:16 AM > >>>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] OT: So when > I was browsing Bookshare I > > saw > >>>>> that... > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Hello, > >>>>> > >>>>> I was wondering about something. And I > didn't know where else to > > throw > >>>>> this out except the volunteer list. > >>>>> > >>>>> Anyway, just now I clicked on the new > to collection page. I was > >>>>> surprised to see quite a few publisher > quality Harlequin books. > >>>>> > >>>>> The thing is, I didn't remember seeing > them earlier, when I cruised > > > >>>>> through the romance category Thursday > afternoon. > >>>>> > >>>>> Thinking maybe they were recently > added since the date of addition > > was > >>>>> 5/13/2011 and where I am it's only a > little after 1 a.m. Friday > > morning > >>>>> as I type this, I thought maybe it was > very recent. > >>>>> > >>>>> However, I clicked to browse the > romance category again, and I was > >>>>> correct. Those books I saw on the new > to collection page were not > >>>>> listed in the romance category. In > fact, when I clicked on one of > > the > >>>>> books listed on the new to collection > page, they didn't have a > > category > >>>>> selected at all. Or at least, not that > I saw. > >>>>> > >>>>> Is this a simple oversight or is there > a reason for this? I'm just > > a > >>>>> little confused because normally when > I want a romance, I look at > > the > >>>>> romance category page for new > additions. > >>>>> > >>>>> I'll work through this if this is the > way. But I'm going to find it > > a > >>>>> little more time consuming to check > out what's done by Harlequin > > and > >>>>> what's a fiction novel with heavy > romantic influence. If that makes > > > >>>>> sense to everyone. Lol. > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks for listening to me ramble, > >>>>> Natalie > >>>>> To unsubscribe from this list send a > blank Email to > >>>>> bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >>>>> put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself > in the subject line. To get a > > > >>>>> list of available commands, put the > word 'help' by itself in the > >>>>> subject line. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart > Security, version of virus > >>>>> signature database 6119 (20110513) > __________ > >>>>> > >>>>> The message was checked by ESET Smart > Security. > >>>>> > >>>>> http://www.eset.com > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> To unsubscribe from this list send a blank > Email to > >>>> bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >>>> put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in > the subject line. To get a > > list > >>>> of available commands, put the word 'help' > by itself in the subject > >>>> line. > >>>> > >>> > >>> To unsubscribe from this list send a blank > Email to > >>> bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >>> put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the > subject line. To get a > > list > >>> of available commands, put the word 'help' by > itself in the subject > > line. > >>> > >>> > >>> __________ Information from ESET Smart > Security, version of virus > >>> signature database 6120 (20110513) __________ > >>> > >>> The message was checked by ESET Smart > Security. > >>> > >>> http://www.eset.com > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email > to > >> bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >> put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the > subject line. To get a > > list > >> of available commands, put the word 'help' by > itself in the subject > > line. > >> > > > > To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to > > bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject > line. To get a list > > of available commands, put the word 'help' by itself > in the subject > > line. > > > > To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to > > bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject > line. To get a list > > of available commands, put the word 'help' by itself > in the subject line. > > > > To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to > bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject > line. To get a list of available commands, put the > word 'help' by itself in the subject line. > > To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a list of available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the subject line. To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a list of available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the subject line.To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a list of available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the subject line. To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a list of available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the subject line. To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxput the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a list of available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the subject line.
To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a list of available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the subject line.
