Lee
What was the date was that recommended mounting? Do we still believe Saturn is
the furthest planet from the sun? Has X2Y changed their recommendations since
John did his measurements? Has Steve Weir's work contradicted John's because
Steve used the correct layout? Why are you basing you argument on known bad
information?
Tom Dagostino
Teraspeed LabsOn Mar 12, 2016 2:27 AM, Lee Ritchey <leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
------------------------------------------------------------------
On our web site, www.speedingedge.com you can download the article by John
Zasio showing comparison of X2Y to 0402 capacitors mounted on the same test
PCB following the mounting instructions given by the vendor.
You can decide for yourself which to use from that data.
This should be the detail that some of you have requested.
Lee Ritchey
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On ;
Behalf Of Joel Brown
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 10:05 AM
To: Charles.Grasso@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: vrbanacm@xxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: X2Y equivalent circuit model
I thought one of the things that make X2Y capacitors lower inductance is
that the current in each terminal flows in opposite directions causing a
cancellation effect. This is from X2Y website:
- Low inductance due to cancellation effect
I used them on some boards back when they came out. I can't say they worked
better than 0402 capacitors because I did not do any detailed measurements.
You really need to consider the whole PDN system including the mounting
inductance, spreading inductance, IC package parasitics, frequency spoectrum
of IC switching current, any decoupling that might be inside the IC package
which is often an unknown. I think this detailed kind of analysis would be
nice to do but is rarely done. IME I have never had a problem just following
good design practices.
On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 9:50 AM, Grasso, Charles <
Charles.Grasso@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hello,Scott's recent input on this re:
Current thinking has it that the PDN performance is only as good as
the first pwb resonance (typically in the few hundreds of MHZ - I have
seen 300 as a commonly used
number) and
that the BGA decoupling is (for the most part) taken care of by the
substrate capacitance.
In other words - it is my understanding that the board decouplers
don't really need to be "high" performers are the frequencies of
interest are (relatively) low.
I'd appreciate the communities thoughts on this.
[Hello Mike - Good to "see" you again!]
Best Regards
Charles Grasso
Compliance Engineer
Echostar Communications
(w) 303-706-5467
(c) 303-204-2974
(t) 3032042974@xxxxxxxxx
(e) charles.grasso@xxxxxxxxxxxx
(e2) chasgrasso@xxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] ;
On Behalf Of Michael Vrbanac
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 9:42 AM
To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: X2Y equivalent circuit model
I agree that Steve had this correct. I had some offline discussions
w/Steve back in that timeframe and between that and the decoupling
capacitor/PDN performance optimization research studies we did at in
my EMC design research lab at Compaq on this topic back in the early
90's, also considering "side mounted decoupling capacitors" (yes, that
format was around back then) because we were already seeing EMC issues
long before anyone became concerned about PDN performance. Anyway,
Steve and I were in agreement that they worked well enough but that
the layout and placement were absolutely critical which agrees with
spreading inductance and placement distance. If it matters, we had thehelps.
test boards micro-sectioned after the fact to make absolutely sure
that we made no assumptions about mounting dimensional parameters.
IIRC, someone on that team later wrote a paper on part of that study
(not all) but I have since forgotten its title and the name of fe
llow who wrote it. Sorry I cannot remember who but that was back in
the days when my head was handed to me daily for saying what this
forum has rightly understood these days as good engineering practice.
It was heresy back then. BTW, as you might guess, the results of that
study back then were in good agreement with most of what has been
posted on here as good design practice for quite some time. I hope that
'poor'
Michael E. Vrbanac
EMC Forensics, President
On 03/11/2016 10:00 AM, David Anthony wrote:
Lee, the vendors dimensionally detail land pad 'recommendations' forX2Y, but stay away from dimensioning specific via layouts. Scroll down
to Johanson's 'PCB mounting' tab at this link:
http://www.johansondielectrics.com/x2y-filter-decoupling-capacitors# ;in the PDN Bypass applications section, notice the 'recommended' and
pcb
Below the land pad dimensions, Johanson shows 'stick' figure via
layouts
layout depictions, no dimensions. If any vendor sent you, or youpreached:
downloaded a vendor document specifying the poor layout please send it
to me. Steve would not specify that poor layout as you suggest, these
early 2004-05 papers are just a few examples of the low inductance he
http://www.ipblox.com/pubs/DesignConEast_2005/DesignCon%20East%202005% ;
Bypass Capacitor Inductance, Data Sheet Simplicity to Practical
Reality
20TF2_ipb.pdf
On Behalf Of Lee Ritchey
Considerations for Capacitor Selection in FPGA Designs
http://www.x2y.com/publications/decoupling/mar21-05.pdf ;
-Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] ;
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 1:07 AMCharles.Grasso@xxxxxxxxxxxx; 'Ray Anderson'
To: tom@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; 'Ray Anderson'; cristian.gozzi@xxxxxxxxx;
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: X2Y equivalent circuit modelvendor. I believe that that layout was specified by Steve. IT looks
The board layout complied exactly with what was specified by the
like what is on his test PCB.
On Behalf Of Tom Dagostino
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] ;
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2016 10:19 AMcristian.gozzi@xxxxxxxxx; Charles.Grasso@xxxxxxxxxxxx; 'Ray Anderson'
To: leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; 'Ray Anderson' <raya@xxxxxxxxxx>;
< ray.anderson@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: X2Y equivalent circuit modelwas incorrect.
Lee you know that board was not the optimal layout. Steve told you
it
Tom Dagostinoleeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Tom Dagostino
Teraspeed LabsOn Mar 9, 2016 8:30 AM, Lee Ritchey <
03/11/16We mounted the X2Y capacitors exactly as specified in the------------------------------------------------------------------
applications notes provided by the vendor.
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Grasso, Charles ;
Sent: Monday, March 7, 2016 7:46 AM
To: leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; cristian.gozzi@xxxxxxxxx; 'Ray Anderson'
<ray.anderson@xxxxxxxxxx>; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: 'Ray Anderson' <raya@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: X2Y equivalent circuit model
Hello Lee - What method is used for a capacitor to be properly
mounted? So, if an X2Y capacitor is properly mounted the <insert
metric here> will not improve?
Best Regards
Charles Grasso
Compliance Engineer
Echostar Communications
(w) 303-706-5467
(c) 303-204-2974
(t) 3032042974@xxxxxxxxx
(e) charles.grasso@xxxxxxxxxxxx
(e2) chasgrasso@xxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Lee Ritchey ;
Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2016 5:44 AM
To: cristian.gozzi@xxxxxxxxx; 'Ray Anderson'; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: 'Ray Anderson'
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: X2Y equivalent circuit model
Our tests show that the X2Y capacitor is no better than a properly
mounted
0402 capacitor.
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Cristian Gozzi ;
Sent: Friday, March 4, 2016 10:57 AM
To: Ray Anderson <ray.anderson@xxxxxxxxxx>; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: Ray Anderson <raya@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: X2Y equivalent circuit model
Thanks
it worked ;-)
Regards
Cristian
Il giorno gio 3 mar 2016 alle ore 10:04 Ray Anderson <
ray.anderson@xxxxxxxxxx> ha scritto:
Cristian-attachments immediately.
Johanson Dielectrics has downloadable spice models available from
this web
page:
http://www.johansondielectrics.com/x2y-filter-decoupling-capacitor ;
s
download link:
http://www.johansondielectrics.com/downloads/JDI_X2Y_H-Spice_Files ;
.z
ip
They should be usable in ADS using the ADS 'Hspice Compatibility
Component' Wizard. (in fact I just confirmed that they import OK).
-Ray Anderson
Xilinx Inc.
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] ;
On Behalf Of Cristian Gozzi
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2016 9:07 AM
To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] X2Y equivalent circuit model
Hi Si expert
I was looking for a good circuit model for X2Y capacitor to be
used in my ADS circuit simulation
on internet I found this
http://www.x2y.com/bypass/X2Y%20Equivalent%20Circuit%20for%20Models. ;
pd
f
but when I tried to implemented it, something was wrong The
impedance vs freq. shapes on log/log scale does not seem correct
can someone give to me any feedback or good reference to look for?
thanks in advance
Regards
Cristian
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