[SI-LIST] Re: Where are IBIS models with SSO support ?
- From: "Istvan Nagy" <buenos@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <Aubrey_Sparkman@xxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 20:14:30 -0000
its one thing what it hurts them and another thing what they are afraid of.
in "they" i ment their sales and management. i think what they afraid of, is
that they will look like someone without the perfect knowledge and control
over the things they do (and without the perfect ultimate product what we
must buy). managers mostly dont understand why its hard to have good sso
control on a package, maybe they think their package/chip engineers screwed
up something and now teir job is to cover it and save the business. another
thing is they think they made perfect engineering and i just have to throw
their chip on a board and it will function perfectly, and the quality is
guaranteed only by their brand -no technical details (other than they
provided) i need to worry about.
i also work together with sales/management and i can see this kind of
thinking sometimes. (i design boards, not chips)
Istvan
CCT
----- Original Message -----
From: <Aubrey_Sparkman@xxxxxxxx>
To: <buenos@xxxxxxxxxxx>; <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 7:00 PM
Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Where are IBIS models with SSO support ?
Istvan,
You may be right, but which hurts the chip manufacture more? Having the
system designer aware of the problem so (s)he can design around the problem
or the designer finding the problem after the system is designed and built
and having to re-design with schedule slippages?
And this discussion pre-supposes that the chip manufacturer did the work to
find about any problems to begin with. Do you think this is always true?
Aubrey Sparkman
PG Signal Integrity Team
Dell, Inc.
Aubrey_Sparkman@xxxxxxxx
(512) 723-3592
"Laughing at our mistakes can lengthen our own life. Laughing at someone
else's can shorten it." - Cullen Hightower.
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Istvan Nagy
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:43 PM
To: Scott McMorrow
Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Where are IBIS models with SSO support ?
scott,
if you are a board designer, then i think the chip manufacturers dont want
you to know about the existence of this kind of problems (fixable only on
package or chip) with their chips. most of the cases...
Istvan Nagy
Concurrent Technologies Plc.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott McMorrow" <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Powell, Jon N" <jon.n.powell@xxxxxxxxx>
Cc: <johndp@xxxxxxxx>; "Muranyi, Arpad" <Arpad_Muranyi@xxxxxxxxxx>;
<si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 6:28 PM
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Where are IBIS models with SSO support ?
> Jon,
> Whether an SSO problem can be fixed by a PCB designer really depends
> on the transfer impedance between the die and the PCB at the frequency
> of interest. However, even if the PCB or system designer cannot fix
> the problem, don't you think it would be a good idea to know if a
> problem exists in the first place? That's where modeling and
> simulation support is necessary.
>
> regards,
>
> scott
>
>
> Scott McMorrow
> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> 121 North River Drive
> Narragansett, RI 02882
> (401) 284-1827 Business
> (401) 284-1840 Fax
>
> http://www.teraspeed.com
>
> TeraspeedŽ is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting
> Group LLC
>
>
>
> Powell, Jon N wrote:
>> And which simulators support it.
>>
>> But in my mind, the big question is, what are you going to do with
>> the data?
>> If you have an SSO problem, you can't really fix it, can you? That
>> problem needs to be fixed with on package de-coupling or some other
>> change the IC designer needs to implement.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>> On Behalf Of johndp@xxxxxxxx
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 9:01 AM
>> To: Muranyi, Arpad; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Where are IBIS models with SSO support ?
>>
>> Chris's question is I believe "where are the models to support the
>> standard ?"
>> It's fine having IBIS 5.0, but which vendors are actively supplying
>> models that support SSO simulations (or other features of the standard)?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> Arpad_Muranyi@xxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>>
>>> Chris,
>>>
>>> I am a little puzzled by your question, because I you didn't specify
>>> what feature you are looking for in the IBIS model that is
>>> specifically there for SSO simulation? If you are you referring to
>>> BIRD95 related material, then one of the replies to this post is
>>> correct, that became available in IBIS 5.0 which is relatively new,
>>> we don't even have a checker program yet. This may be partially the
>>> reason there are no 5.0 models available yet.
>>>
>>> Arpad
>>> ===============================================================
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>> On Behalf Of Chris Cheng
>>> Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 8:58 PM
>>> To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Where are IBIS models with SSO support ?
>>>
>>> I promise this will have a civilized discussion :-D but I have been
>>> looking everywhere for IBIS models that can support SSO simulation
>>> (4.1 or 4.2 ??) but they are no where to be found. In particular I
>>> am looking for DDR2/3 I/O. Am I the only one that see SSO as a
>>> performance limit in DDR buses ?
>>> There are plenty of vendors giving out IBIS model with IV curves but
>>> none seem to support SSO modeling. I can't even remember what year
>>> we had the last discussion about IBIS SSO support but I am sure that
>>> was long time ago.
>>>
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