[SI-LIST] Re: Where are IBIS models with SSO support ?
- From: "Walter Katz" <wkatz@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "Coleman, Dave" <dave.coleman@xxxxxxxxx>, "Scott McMorrow" <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Powell, Jon N" <jon.n.powell@xxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:11:45 -0500
All,
Isn't it the responsibility of the IC vendor to include all of the SSO
affect on the IC timing margins. If the IC vendor does this, then doing SSO
analysis would end up double counting the SSO affects.
Walter
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On
Behalf Of Coleman, Dave
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 2:58 PM
To: Scott McMorrow; Powell, Jon N
Cc: johndp@xxxxxxxx; Muranyi, Arpad; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Where are IBIS models with SSO support ?
Whether the SSO "problem" is fixable or not, the ultimate goal is to be
informed of the performance margins, over operating conditions (pvt,
board/ic return path, bit-pattern cases, etc.). So if the signal timing,
edge-rate, or other characteristics are affected by SSO, then board
designers need to be equipped with an adequate model to simulate for the
variations in performance. If not fixable, at least the accurate
simulations should be able to be run to assess margins!
-dave
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Scott McMorrow
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 11:35 AM
To: Powell, Jon N
Cc: johndp@xxxxxxxx; Muranyi, Arpad; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Where are IBIS models with SSO support ?
Powell, Jon N wrote:
> I guess I don't see a IC designer giving out a model that says there is a
problem.
> They would just fix the problem.
>
In reality, many of these SSO problems are found after the fact, and
brushed away by semiconductor company management as acceptable risks.
It often takes huge product recalls and litigation to get companies to
change their ways.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Scott McMorrow [mailto:scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 10:29 AM
> To: Powell, Jon N
> Cc: johndp@xxxxxxxx; Muranyi, Arpad; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: Where are IBIS models with SSO support ?
>
> Jon,
>
> Whether an SSO problem can be fixed by a PCB designer really depends on
the transfer impedance between the die and the PCB at the frequency of
interest. However, even if the PCB or system designer cannot fix the
problem, don't you think it would be a good idea to know if a problem exists
in the first place? That's where modeling and simulation support is
necessary.
>
> regards,
>
> scott
>
>
>
> Scott McMorrow
>
> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
>
> 121 North River Drive
>
> Narragansett, RI 02882
>
> (401) 284-1827 Business
>
> (401) 284-1840 Fax
>
>
>
> http://www.teraspeed.com
>
>
>
> Teraspeed(r) is the registered service mark of
>
> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
>
>
> Powell, Jon N wrote:
>
> And which simulators support it.
>
>
>
> But in my mind, the big question is, what are you going to do with the
data?
>
> If you have an SSO problem, you can't really fix it, can you? That problem
needs to be fixed with on package de-coupling or some other change the IC
designer needs to implement.
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
johndp@xxxxxxxx<mailto:johndp@xxxxxxxx>
>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 9:01 AM
>
> To: Muranyi, Arpad; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Where are IBIS models with SSO support ?
>
>
>
> Chris's question is I believe "where are the models to support the
standard ?"
>
> It's fine having IBIS 5.0, but which vendors are actively supplying models
that support SSO simulations (or other features of the standard)?
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Arpad_Muranyi@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:Arpad_Muranyi@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
>
> Chris,
>
>
>
> I am a little puzzled by your question, because I you didn't
>
> specify what feature you are looking for in the IBIS model
>
> that is specifically there for SSO simulation? If you are you
>
> referring to BIRD95 related material, then one of the replies
>
> to this post is correct, that became available in IBIS 5.0
>
> which is relatively new, we don't even have a checker program
>
> yet. This may be partially the reason there are no 5.0 models
>
> available yet.
>
>
>
> Arpad
>
> ===============================================================
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>
> On Behalf Of Chris Cheng
>
> Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 8:58 PM
>
> To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Where are IBIS models with SSO support ?
>
>
>
> I promise this will have a civilized discussion :-D but I have been
>
> looking everywhere for IBIS models that can support SSO simulation (4.1
>
> or 4.2 ??) but they are no where to be found. In particular I am looking
>
> for DDR2/3 I/O. Am I the only one that see SSO as a performance limit in
>
> DDR buses ?
>
> There are plenty of vendors giving out IBIS model with IV curves but
>
> none seem to support SSO modeling. I can't even remember what year we
>
> had the last discussion about IBIS SSO support but I am sure that was
>
> long time ago.
>
>
>
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