[SI-LIST] Re: Where are IBIS models with SSO support ?
- From: Scott McMorrow <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "Powell, Jon N" <jon.n.powell@xxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 14:40:01 -0500
Jon
Well, you could use Reductio ad absurdum in Engineering, but you would
not be an Engineer, now would you? A system designer's job is to
Engineer the system. In the process, it's always good to be able to
prove where the problems aren't.
Scott
Scott McMorrow
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
121 North River Drive
Narragansett, RI 02882
(401) 284-1827 Business
(401) 284-1840 Fax
http://www.teraspeed.com
Teraspeed? is the registered service mark of
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
Powell, Jon N wrote:
> We may be thinking about different levels of abstraction on the model.
> I mean, one way to think about it is, if there is NO SSO problem, you would
> be wasting your time creating a model and providing all of that unused data.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of Aubrey_Sparkman@xxxxxxxx
> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 11:00 AM
> To: buenos@xxxxxxxxxxx; scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Where are IBIS models with SSO support ?
>
> Istvan,
> You may be right, but which hurts the chip manufacture more? Having the
> system designer aware of the problem so (s)he can design around the problem
> or the designer finding the problem after the system is designed and built
> and having to re-design with schedule slippages?
>
> And this discussion pre-supposes that the chip manufacturer did the work to
> find about any problems to begin with. Do you think this is always true?
>
>
> Aubrey Sparkman
> PG Signal Integrity Team
> Dell, Inc.
> Aubrey_Sparkman@xxxxxxxx
> (512) 723-3592
>
> "Laughing at our mistakes can lengthen our own life. Laughing at someone
> else's can shorten it." - Cullen Hightower.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of Istvan Nagy
> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:43 PM
> To: Scott McMorrow
> Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Where are IBIS models with SSO support ?
>
> scott,
>
> if you are a board designer, then i think the chip manufacturers dont want
> you to know about the existence of this kind of problems (fixable only on
> package or chip) with their chips. most of the cases...
>
> Istvan Nagy
> Concurrent Technologies Plc.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott McMorrow" <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: "Powell, Jon N" <jon.n.powell@xxxxxxxxx>
> Cc: <johndp@xxxxxxxx>; "Muranyi, Arpad" <Arpad_Muranyi@xxxxxxxxxx>;
> <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 6:28 PM
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Where are IBIS models with SSO support ?
>
>
>
>> Jon,
>> Whether an SSO problem can be fixed by a PCB designer really depends
>> on the transfer impedance between the die and the PCB at the frequency
>> of interest. However, even if the PCB or system designer cannot fix
>> the problem, don't you think it would be a good idea to know if a
>> problem exists in the first place? That's where modeling and
>> simulation support is necessary.
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> scott
>>
>>
>> Scott McMorrow
>> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
>> 121 North River Drive
>> Narragansett, RI 02882
>> (401) 284-1827 Business
>> (401) 284-1840 Fax
>>
>> http://www.teraspeed.com
>>
>> Teraspeed® is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting
>> Group LLC
>>
>>
>>
>> Powell, Jon N wrote:
>>
>>> And which simulators support it.
>>>
>>> But in my mind, the big question is, what are you going to do with
>>> the data?
>>> If you have an SSO problem, you can't really fix it, can you? That
>>> problem needs to be fixed with on package de-coupling or some other
>>> change the IC designer needs to implement.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>> On Behalf Of johndp@xxxxxxxx
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 9:01 AM
>>> To: Muranyi, Arpad; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Where are IBIS models with SSO support ?
>>>
>>> Chris's question is I believe "where are the models to support the
>>> standard ?"
>>> It's fine having IBIS 5.0, but which vendors are actively supplying
>>> models that support SSO simulations (or other features of the standard)?
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Arpad_Muranyi@xxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Chris,
>>>>
>>>> I am a little puzzled by your question, because I you didn't specify
>>>> what feature you are looking for in the IBIS model that is
>>>> specifically there for SSO simulation? If you are you referring to
>>>> BIRD95 related material, then one of the replies to this post is
>>>> correct, that became available in IBIS 5.0 which is relatively new,
>>>> we don't even have a checker program yet. This may be partially the
>>>> reason there are no 5.0 models available yet.
>>>>
>>>> Arpad
>>>> ===============================================================
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>> On Behalf Of Chris Cheng
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 8:58 PM
>>>> To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Where are IBIS models with SSO support ?
>>>>
>>>> I promise this will have a civilized discussion :-D but I have been
>>>> looking everywhere for IBIS models that can support SSO simulation
>>>> (4.1 or 4.2 ??) but they are no where to be found. In particular I
>>>> am looking for DDR2/3 I/O. Am I the only one that see SSO as a
>>>> performance limit in DDR buses ?
>>>> There are plenty of vendors giving out IBIS model with IV curves but
>>>> none seem to support SSO modeling. I can't even remember what year
>>>> we had the last discussion about IBIS SSO support but I am sure that
>>>> was long time ago.
>>>>
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