Brian So based on your comments, I understand that Intel Corporation will Guarantee the design solutions that are provided to customers in application notes and design guidelines. Is that correct? scott Moran, Brian P wrote: >Hi Dan, > >Your point is well taken. If you're willing to do the simulations you >can sometimes further optimize the design for your specific solution >space, and in some cases perhaps even eliminate the need for some >components. For example, series Rs are often specified in guidelines to >cover certain topology corner cases that do not exist in some designs, >but do exist within the overall solution space simulated in the >generation >of the guidelines. So if you have the time and resources there is always >potential to leverage your knowledge of the actual platform design and >stackup to further optimize. Another example would be the PCB >fabrication parameters. Our guidelines assume a fairly wide range of >material tolerances and trace tolerances. These ranges are specifed to >cover 90% of the known PCB vendor space, so customers can use the most >cost effective vendors. If you know your using a higher tier vendor with >tighter capabilities, you can ring more out of your design that our >guidelines might specify. It's a question of return on investment, but I >would never discourage anyone from doing their own simulation, >especially where a design is known to have fewer degrees of freedom than >the general case. Before I start removing components, however, I'd want >to have complete confidence in my models. The good news is you don't >have to simulate if you can live with the generic solution. >=20 >Brian P. Moran=20 >Calistoga SIE Kit Leader=20 >Intel Corporation=20 >brian.p.moran@xxxxxxxxx=20 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Dan Bostan [mailto:dbostan@xxxxxxxxx]=20 >Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 9:46 AM >To: Moran, Brian P; leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Tom Biggs; >si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: DDR SDRAM signal routing > >I beg to differ with Brian, because I just simulated such an interface >and was able to eliminate a couple of components and improve the quality >at the same time. >I would say that the simulation of a DRR interface is mandatory. >/dan > > >--- "Moran, Brian P" <brian.p.moran@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > >>Hi Folks, >>=20 >>As frequency bins move upward you find new sources of SI issues even=20 >>in legacy DDR2/3 topologies. This along with subtle changes in buffer=20 >>designs and SDRAM module design require extensive frequency domain and >> >> > > > >>time domain simulations be done for every new DDR2/3 generation. >>Fortunately, the mainstream memory controller vendors do all of this=20 >>for the end users and provide guidelines which if followed allow the=20 >>associated platform designs to be launched successfully without=20 >>simulation. A lot of analysis also goes into the JEDEC raw card=20 >>specifications to ensure the resident portion of the topologies are=20 >>optimized. So in most cases the end user does not need to simulate.=20 >>Just follow the guidelines.=3D20 >>=20 >>Intel provides such guidelines and only recommends simulation when the >> >> > > > >>design deviates from our assumptions in terms of platform stackup, bus >> >> > > > >>lengths, and/or routing geometries. We try to provide a guaranteed=20 >>solution space which is adequate to allow our customers to build their >> >> > > > >>full line of boxes and get to market without extensive amounts of=20 >>simulation. Of course most big system houses have simulation resources >> >> > > > >>and expertise, but its not necessarily required unless the design is=20 >>unique in some way. Where simulation is needed is for people doing=20 >>non-standard applications using non-PC form factors and/or memory down >> >> > > > >>on the motherboard, etc... Another can of worms applies to folks using >> >> > > > >>dual stripline stackups where layer to layer coupling is not zero, or=20 >>where pure orthogonal routing rules can generate higher than expected=20 >>via counts. In these cases auxiliary simulation should be performed.=20 >>=3D20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>Brian P. Moran=3D20 >>Calistoga SIE Kit Leader=3D20 >>Intel Corporation=3D20 >>brian.p.moran@xxxxxxxxx=3D20 >>=20 >>=20 >>-----Original Message----- >>From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] >>On Behalf Of Lee Ritchey >>Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 10:33 AM >>To: Tom Biggs; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: DDR SDRAM signal routing >>=20 >>All you have to do then, is trust those simulations. >> Based on the >>accuracy of the average application note, is that a good thing to do? >>=20 >>Lee W. Ritchey >>Speeding Edge >>P. O. Box 2194 >>Glen Ellen, CA 95442 >>Phone- 707-568-3983 >>FAX- 707-568-3504 >>=20 >>I just used the energy it took to be angry to write some blues. >>Count Basie >>=20 >>=20 >> >> >>>[Original Message] >>>From: Tom Biggs <tbiggs@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>To: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>Date: 11/8/2004 10:14:43 AM >>>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: DDR SDRAM signal routing >>> >>>I'm going to play devil's advocate here just to >>> >>> >>get people thinking. >> >> >>>(Note that I simulate the DDR designs I've done). >>> >>>Ed says "The driving force behind all this is time >>> >>> >>to market and=3D20 >> >> >>>system reliability." >>> >>>There is one other force: cost. These days we can >>> >>> >>be easily outsourced >>=20 >> >> >>>if we are too expensive to our bosses.=3D3D20 >>> >>>How many IBM PowerPC 440GX (now AMCC's chip) >>> >>> >>designs have been done?=3D20 >> >> >>>How many times have people simulated them and come >>> >>> >>up with design=3D20 >> >> >>>guidelines that will work? Yes, many of these >>> >>> >>designs are different=3D20 >> >> >>>from each other, but I would bet that many of them >>> >>> >>are EXACTLY the=3D20 >> >> >>>same. Do we need 100 engineers to simulate the >>> >>> >>exact same thing 100=3D20 >> >> >>>times to come up with 100 identical sets of >>> >>> >>routing rules?=3D3D20 >> >> >>>If AMCC ran lots of simulations, then came out >>> >>> >>with a set of strict=3D20 >> >> >>>routing rules for some typical embedded 440GX >>> >>> >>applications, then=3D20 >> >> >>>someone should be able to design a board with >>> >>> >>these rules and not have >>=20 >> >> >>>to run simulations. Reliability should be fine if >>> >>> >>they do their job=3D20 >> >> >>>right, time to market will be short, and cost will >>> >>> >>be low. >> >> >>> -tom >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D20=20 >>>[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] >>>On Behalf Of Ed Sayre III >>>Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 9:33 AM >>>To: pm_norge@xxxxxxxxxxx >>>Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: DDR SDRAM signal routing >>> >>> >>>Peter, >>> You NEED to run simulations. I have worked on >>> >>> >>DDR SDRAMs=3D20 >> >> >>>architectures=3D3D20 for many years now and every >>> >>> >>one was slightly=3D20 >> >> >>>different. You can benefit=3D3D20 greatly from >>> >>> >>simulations since it=3D20 >> >> >>>generates your skew budget, component=3D3D20 >>> >>> >>placement and proper=3D20 >> >> >>>termination among other design points. If >>> >>> >>you=3D3D20 management tells =3D >>you >>=20 >> >> >>>that they are willing to spend the money on >>> >>> >>repeated=3D3D20 turns, where =3D >>=20 >> >> >>>you may or may not find the right answer, then you >>> >>> >>are wasting=3D3D20 =3D >>your >>=20 >> >> >>>money. Either hire a consultant with experience >>> >>> >>in the area of DDR >> >> >>>memory or develop your own in house expertise.=20 >>> >>> >>There are many people=3D20 >> >> >>>and=3D3D20 >>>products available right now. The driving force >>> >>> >>behind all this is >> >> >>>time=3D3D20 >>>to market and system reliability. >>> >>>Good luck >>>-Ed Sayre >>> >>> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> NORTH EAST SYSTEMS ASSOCIATES, INC >>> =3D >>> >>> >>-------------------------------------=3D3D20 >> >> >>> "High Performance >>> >>> >>Engineering & Design" >> >> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> Dr. Edward Sayre 3rd e-mail: >>> >>> >>esayre3@xxxxxxxx >> >> >>> NESA, Inc. =20 >>> >>> >>http://www.nesa.com/ >> >> >>> 5 Lan Drive, Suite 200 Tel=20 >>> >>> >>+1.978.392-8787 x 218 >> >> >>> Westford, MA 01886 USA Fax +1.978.392-8686 >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> >>> >>> >>>At 09:32 AM 11/8/2004 +0000, you wrote: >>> >>> >>>>I have been designing different kinds of >>>> >>>> >>electronic products, but=3D20 >> >> >>>>never >>>> >>>> >>>>a DDR SDRAM interface with 16 memory chips >>>> >>>> >>(MT46V64M8, 512Mb =3D >>=20 >> >> >=3D=3D=3D message truncated =3D=3D=3D > > > > =09 >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!?=20 >Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.=20 >www.yahoo.com=20 >=20 > >------------------------------------------------------------------ >To unsubscribe from si-list: >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > >or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > >For help: >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > >List FAQ wiki page is located at: > http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ > >List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.org > >List archives are viewable at: > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages >Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > -- Scott McMorrow Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC 121 North River Drive Narragansett, RI 02882 (401) 284-1827 Business (401) 284-1840 Fax (503) 750-6481 Cellular http://www.teraspeed.com Teraspeed is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List FAQ wiki page is located at: http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.org List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu