[project1dev] Re: Project1 - SVN Update 270
- From: Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:21:07 -0700
I was thinking there should be another tier for exploration's sake. In your
example you mentioned athletic being 1.5x jump and magical being 3.0x jump.
I was thinking there should be a middle ground to create more levels of
advanced areas you can reach. If we design the game properly this can be
avoided and not an issue.
Heavier armor - What about out running enemies? In the cave our enemies
chase down the player. If the player is wearing heavier armor he is just
kinda fucked by comparison to someone wearing lighter armor and is better at
avoiding enemies. A trade off would be taking less damage in combat but the
player will most likely fight slower as well.
What are the pros and cons to heavier armor?
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 9:15 AM, Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Are there over-world benefits for wearing heavier? Such as resistance to
> different traps? If no, what's to say a player won't remove armor for doing
> maneuvers, then putting it back on to fight an enemy; such a case could get
> tedious fairly quickly.
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 11:10 AM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> just a quick clarification:
>>
>> 1) can't jump - only used to penalize people who wear armor they aren't
>> strong enough for or for certain other special case scenarios
>>
>> 2) small jumping ability, used for injured players and players using plate
>> armor
>>
>> 3) normal - the baseline we design for
>>
>> 4) extra-ordinary - this is for super athletic characters (or maybe
>> special boots) that let you jump extra far, gives access to some special
>> areas.
>>
>> 5) magically imbued - this is very rare special case scenario, i actually
>> think this one is possibly superfluous and could probably be eliminated
>> without losing much.
>>
>> the reasons for this is that people can understand their capabilities and
>> limitations easily, there's less variables for them to understand and for us
>> to design for, while still allowing a versatile system that benefits players
>> who go with lighter armor or find special items that let them jump farther,
>> etc. etc.
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:06 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>> "I like Eric's system but I feel like there should be more than 5 tiers.
>>> I was writing out a big counter point but in the end I convinced myself that
>>> I like this method best. I think there should be a tier between 4 and 5. A
>>> tier where the player is better than most but not magically imbued."
>>>
>>> well that was sort of the purpose for tier 4, to give something between a
>>> normal person and someone who is magically imbued. that way there's a clear
>>> distinction between normal and extraordinarily athletic characters... i
>>> personally think adding another tier between the two is ok but it creates
>>> another segment to design places for and i am not sure having 2 better than
>>> normal tiers is good bang for the buck... maybe some hypothetical examples
>>> would help clear up the issue?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:00 PM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>
>>>> I like Eric's system but I feel like there should be more than 5 tiers.
>>>> I was writing out a big counter point but in the end I convinced myself
>>>> that
>>>> I like this method best. I think there should be a tier between 4 and 5. A
>>>> tier where the player is better than most but not magically imbued.
>>>>
>>>> With the lax attitude of letting the player go where they want we can
>>>> design difficult to access dungeons to require a reoccurring use of
>>>> whatever
>>>> skill is needed. For example if you need level 5 jump to access a secret
>>>> dungeon then the secret dungeon should have parts in it that require the
>>>> level 5 jump. That way if a player does get in there they will not be able
>>>> to finish it. If they somehow find a way to exploit the system we could
>>>> reward them.
>>>>
>>>> I don't see any major problems with having multiple jump levels.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 8:21 AM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Jumping is a stat based on quickness, facets, skills, armor, injuries,
>>>>> and special scenario items/boosts/uses. As the player went along in the
>>>>> game, increased their stats, got facets, etc; their ability to jump would
>>>>> increase marginally rather than "look I suddenly jump higher". An analog
>>>>> system would allow for extreme versatility without having to measure out
>>>>> specific jump levels. Getting injuries could slow you down in minor/major
>>>>> degrees, rather than "will this injury drop me down a jump level?" same
>>>>> goes
>>>>> for armor."
>>>>>
>>>>> the problem with this is... there's no clear tier for us to design for,
>>>>> which means we're aiming at a moving target and there's no clear "minimum"
>>>>> to design for, etc. All the problems chris brought up are magnified 10x
>>>>> when there's no tier system. I actually picked the tier system as a
>>>>> bridge
>>>>> between 1 jump level and a purely analogue system for the reasons i
>>>>> mentioned above.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 10:35 AM, Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I like to mix things up a little, but try to keep an open mind here!
>>>>>> No levels of jumping! That's right, none. You can jump, that's it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jumping is a stat based on quickness, facets, skills, armor, injuries,
>>>>>> and special scenario items/boosts/uses. As the player went along in the
>>>>>> game, increased their stats, got facets, etc; their ability to jump would
>>>>>> increase marginally rather than "look I suddenly jump higher". An analog
>>>>>> system would allow for extreme versatility without having to measure out
>>>>>> specific jump levels. Getting injuries could slow you down in
>>>>>> minor/major
>>>>>> degrees, rather than "will this injury drop me down a jump level?" same
>>>>>> goes
>>>>>> for armor.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Re: Redux. Yeah, back in Gemstone3 I was a master of the system and
>>>>>> for my level was point-by-point the toughest warrior in the game.
>>>>>> Gemstone4
>>>>>> changed the system and it became to fuzzy to learn (nobody would release
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> exact system either), and I wasn't about to test warriors from 0 to 30
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> another year to try and figure it out. :\
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 8:27 AM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> i want to explicitely thank chris, alan and katie for offering the
>>>>>>> counter points to my original thought, i really think having alternate
>>>>>>> perspectives of things will allow us to fully explore elements of game
>>>>>>> design like this and that it will ultimately deliver a better, more
>>>>>>> intuitive and most importantly more FUN gaming experience. I do not
>>>>>>> mind
>>>>>>> debating the points as I have done below because frankly, if I cannot
>>>>>>> defend
>>>>>>> the game design philosophy then the system we're discussing is probably
>>>>>>> broken and i need to work on it some more. besides that, it has been
>>>>>>> my experience in designing the combat with nick that when debating ideas
>>>>>>> like this it occasionally inspires great new ideas. I actually consider
>>>>>>> this to be a vital part of "pre-testing" so please, I encourage you to
>>>>>>> continue offering your insights and perspectives!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To give you a specific example, your idea about armor making you
>>>>>>> slower and jump shorter will generally make players avoid doing that
>>>>>>> in any instance they can. In action based games, skilled players
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>> go towards what is as fast and damaging as possible, and will avoid
>>>>>>> things like that on purpose.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - this is by design, we want to encourage people who are exploring to
>>>>>>> use lighter armor, it makes no sense to go on a journey into a
>>>>>>> mysterious
>>>>>>> temple that is bound to have traps, puzzles, etc. in full plate armor.
>>>>>>> We
>>>>>>> want that style of armor to be reserved for people who accept the
>>>>>>> penalty of
>>>>>>> speed/jumping for the enhanced ability to take hits without getting
>>>>>>> damage.
>>>>>>> this is a player choice.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, having injuries slow you down will make players feel like they
>>>>>>> can't be damaged. For things like this you want to flip the tables,
>>>>>>> and instead create armor that gives players more speed, but they take
>>>>>>> more damage. It might seem like a small thing, but in the eyes of a
>>>>>>> player it can make a huge difference in gameplay.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - also by design. We want players to feel like there are concequences
>>>>>>> to being injured and it should be avoided as much as possible. There
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> penalties for being injured or dying - that is a major part of the
>>>>>>> combat
>>>>>>> design here. We are trying to break away from the constant
>>>>>>> healing/ressurection that has been the common thread in most rpgs.
>>>>>>> we're
>>>>>>> trying to get away from the attrition system. more info on this below
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Basically ask yourself if you would play the game and have fun doing
>>>>>>> the things you imagine.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - one of my favorite gaming experiences is america's army, and what
>>>>>>> makes it so great and so immersive is that you are constantly in fear of
>>>>>>> your life so there is actual tension on the battle field, its not like
>>>>>>> tf2
>>>>>>> where you run out, spam attacks and if you get killed, oh well,
>>>>>>> respawn. I
>>>>>>> love the idea of players figuring out the best strategies to stay alive
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> learning tactics and skills to do it. yes, it is a challenge - but that
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> what makes it so great! Another game I love, as alan pointed out, is
>>>>>>> gemstone. Gemstone was ruthless with one shot kills, getting your leg
>>>>>>> chopped off and not being able to climb stuff, etc. like there's areas
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> the game you have to take your armor off and be athletic enough to jump
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> order to make it over there. staying alive is a major part of that
>>>>>>> game and
>>>>>>> everytime you got hit, you would bleed and feel the effects of it. as a
>>>>>>> player you had to learn to adapt your skills and player style to prevent
>>>>>>> yourself from getting damaged as much as possible. this is a key
>>>>>>> element to
>>>>>>> the game design we are trying to go with. so to answer your question -
>>>>>>> yes,
>>>>>>> i think it'd be fun :P
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Okay guys, this is just my opinion. =) For me when I play arcade-ish
>>>>>>> style games like I the ones I think (if I understand correctly) that we
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> trying to make, I think Chris has got a really good point. I like to
>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>> the easiest route possible to get to the next step. Not that we should
>>>>>>> flake
>>>>>>> on stuff. But we should make sure to not scrutinize/overthink things too
>>>>>>> much if that makes sense.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - this is an rpg, not an arcade game! :P the emphasis is on
>>>>>>> exploration, not just going as quickly as you can to get to the next
>>>>>>> level
>>>>>>> (although you can if you so choose). what makes rpg's (and adventure
>>>>>>> games)
>>>>>>> fun for me is finding all the little secrets that are hidden all over
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> world. also, everyone is acting like 5 settings is so complex, really
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> first one is only for special case scenarios and isn't meant to be used
>>>>>>> during actual gameplay, and the 5th one is really only to serve as a
>>>>>>> special
>>>>>>> thing for use like spells, flying, etc. there are only 3 main ones, a
>>>>>>> weak
>>>>>>> jump for heavily armored players, a normal one for most people, and a
>>>>>>> long
>>>>>>> jump for people who choose to sacrifice armor for speed and
>>>>>>> manueverability
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd bet this jump level thing would more or less be invisible /
>>>>>>> automatic to the player. Like when you were heavier you just dont jump
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> high or as far. The player might not know there are 5 levels of jumping
>>>>>>> ability, they might just realize "hey when i take off my armor i can
>>>>>>> make
>>>>>>> that jump to that cave i couldnt get to before" (and of course maybe an
>>>>>>> NPC
>>>>>>> tips you off to that fact). Or there are boots that have the
>>>>>>> description of
>>>>>>> "wear to be able to jump higher"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -right, this is all an under the hood system. its funny because when
>>>>>>> i write stories, etc. i try to keep things as close to the vest because
>>>>>>> i
>>>>>>> like the reader to be surprised, i like keeping a mystery and something
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> them to discover for themselves. this is also true in my game design
>>>>>>> philosophy, give players a ton of neat stuff they can find out for
>>>>>>> themselves if they want to... the irony is, as a team we're ALL under
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> hood so i have to express all the hidden things to you guys so it can
>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>> made/discussed, but then everyone is like "oh that is overly complicated
>>>>>>> there's no reason for that!" without putting themselves in the shoes of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> player who doesn't even know the system exists and that its just there
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> them to discover if they are curious and interested.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 5 different jumps will matter only as much as we design the game for
>>>>>>> them to matter. In Diablo 2, the barb jump skill only let you cross
>>>>>>> certain terrain that wasn't walkable, so having so many different
>>>>>>> jump
>>>>>>> lengths was easily solved - just make the pits larger. If we can
>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>> an easy solution in our game - an equivalent to "just making the pits
>>>>>>> larger" - then we can add as many jumps as we want, and even make
>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>> scale into flying!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I recently learned how to do the shinespark tricks in Metroid
>>>>>>> Redesign, and if we could make our jumps in the game require a skill
>>>>>>> curve somehow, that would reward the player for the ability to jump
>>>>>>> higher... almost like how in 3d Mario games, you have to jump right
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> you hit the ground again, within a certain amount of time, so you can
>>>>>>> do the triple jump.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -i actually view it as a really simple system that allows for a lot
>>>>>>> of neat versatility in game design and player strategy... something that
>>>>>>> allows for more skill based movement if people are interested because i
>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>> some crazy people (like nick) enjoy finding crazy challenges and trying
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> exploit gameplay tools to get into areas, etc. i think that is fun and
>>>>>>> great and should be part of our design. i picked 5 as the number so
>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>> would be differences between teh playing styles while keeping things we
>>>>>>> needed to design/test for to the minimum.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> okay so lets get down to brass tacks here (how much for the monkey?)
>>>>>>> (3 adunai points to whoever gets the reference)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IMO we have 2 options:
>>>>>>> a) 2 jump system - 1 for armor too heavy for you (basically,
>>>>>>> non-jumping) and 1 for normal.
>>>>>>> pros: easier to design for, easier to test for, no need to think
>>>>>>> about armor choices for the player beyond "is it too heavy?"
>>>>>>> cons: less versatile, no differences between wearing
>>>>>>> light/heavy/medium armor for adventurers, no hidden areas only
>>>>>>> accessible by
>>>>>>> people who invest and discover ways to jump farther.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> b) 5 jump system - as illustrated above
>>>>>>> pros: more for the player to discover, another "tool" in our tool
>>>>>>> box, gives extra strengths/weaknesses when picking armor and character
>>>>>>> style
>>>>>>> cons: harder to design/test, may baffle some characters.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> now obviously i am biased towards B (the 5 jump system) so my pitch
>>>>>>> for it is, it'll be simpler in practice for the player/designer than it
>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>> seem to you right now, it's important for game balance between
>>>>>>> heavy/light
>>>>>>> armor, players can really just make sure they are at level 3 (normal)
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> they will be able to get through the entire game without worrying about
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> difference in jump so i think there is zero bafflement chance, and it
>>>>>>> gives
>>>>>>> us another neat tool for desiging exploration and hidden stuff in the
>>>>>>> game.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am definitely open-minded and can be convinced to go with A) - so
>>>>>>> lets open it up to the forum and take a little poll and if you want to
>>>>>>> post
>>>>>>> comments/thoughts/ideas - then it'll give us more information to make a
>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>> and intelligent decision.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 7:55 AM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> i didnt have time to read everythign yet but basically here is my
>>>>>>>> take...
>>>>>>>> level 1 is basically a "your character is broken level" and doesnt
>>>>>>>> need to be designed for, its basically a penalty thing we can use. it
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> the extreme
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> level 2 is needed to differentiate heavy armor from light armor
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> level 3 is what we will design for, it is "normal"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> level 4 is to sepparate quick characters with ultra light armor from
>>>>>>>> people wearing normal armor
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> level 5 is a special case scenario type of thing
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> we're basically just designing the game for level 3, with maybe a
>>>>>>>> small amount of special case scenario areas for level 4/5 (like under
>>>>>>>> 2-3
>>>>>>>> per chapter)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> i really don't think that it is overly complicated at all and this
>>>>>>>> will be a SUBTLE thing, i.e. again, most of the things like this are
>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>> designed for people who want the bonus, but dont have to have it
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 3:01 AM, Alan Wolfe
>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> yeah actually thats a good point, i remember playin zelda and you
>>>>>>>>> see objects which are obviously repeated (ie black rocks in link to
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> past, or the docks in zelda 1 etc) and knowing "there is something up
>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> those" but you dont know til you have the item. I forgot about that,
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> was kinda fun gameplay :P
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:47 PM, Chris Riccobono <
>>>>>>>>> crysalim@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, that's part of the fun of Zelda and Metroid style games...
>>>>>>>>>> getting those items that make you able to do things you didn't
>>>>>>>>>> predict were
>>>>>>>>>> possible, so then the player wonders what cool thing is gonna come
>>>>>>>>>> out next
>>>>>>>>>> :)
>>>>>>>>>> That's a pretty cool idea for introducing game mechanics.. the
>>>>>>>>>> player doesn't know about them at all in the game until they
>>>>>>>>>> actually get
>>>>>>>>>> the item for it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> yeah totally i agree with you.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> we were talkin about this before, we were saying having lots of
>>>>>>>>>>> optional things to discover in a game makes it seem bigger because
>>>>>>>>>>> we don't
>>>>>>>>>>> advertise what the "edges" are.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> so yeah totally, if we advertise there are 5 jump levels it ruins
>>>>>>>>>>> the magic, but if the player discovers "wtf i jump higher now?"
>>>>>>>>>>> they might
>>>>>>>>>>> try to see just how high they can jump. Maybe they get to level 4
>>>>>>>>>>> and never
>>>>>>>>>>> cap out at level 5, as far as they know the sky is the limit even
>>>>>>>>>>> though
>>>>>>>>>>> they are almost at the cieling hehe.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:36 PM, Chris Riccobono <
>>>>>>>>>>> crysalim@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, about the player not knowing there will be 5 jump levels,
>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> would trigger the "yay I discovered something" emotion. It's
>>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>>> fun to learn how to do something to reach new places, you know?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:35 PM, Chris Riccobono<
>>>>>>>>>>>> crysalim@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> > I do believe simplicity brings about the most fun when done
>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly!
>>>>>>>>>>>> > I think part of the fun of a game is learning how to use the
>>>>>>>>>>>> system,
>>>>>>>>>>>> > too, so when you can learn it very easy at first, you are open
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> > learning new mechanics as things go on.
>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>> > On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:27 PM, Alan Wolfe<
>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> >> You deffinately have a good point. Our game isn't arcadey
>>>>>>>>>>>> per se but it is
>>>>>>>>>>>> >> a game where you can go deeper if you want but don't have to.
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >> Like there will be lots to explore but it's all optional
>>>>>>>>>>>> (Eric correct me if
>>>>>>>>>>>> >> im wrong lol).
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >> I'd bet this jump level thing would more or less be invisible
>>>>>>>>>>>> / automatic to
>>>>>>>>>>>> >> the player. Like when you were heavier you just dont jump as
>>>>>>>>>>>> high or as
>>>>>>>>>>>> >> far. The player might not know there are 5 levels of jumping
>>>>>>>>>>>> ability, they
>>>>>>>>>>>> >> might just realize "hey when i take off my armor i can make
>>>>>>>>>>>> that jump to
>>>>>>>>>>>> >> that cave i couldnt get to before" (and of course maybe an
>>>>>>>>>>>> NPC tips you off
>>>>>>>>>>>> >> to that fact). Or there are boots that have the description
>>>>>>>>>>>> of "wear to be
>>>>>>>>>>>> >> able to jump higher"
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >> But yeah there is deffinate wisdom to keeping it simple,
>>>>>>>>>>>> especially keeping
>>>>>>>>>>>> >> the end result the player sees simple.
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >> Someone should be able to pick up the game and be able to
>>>>>>>>>>>> play without
>>>>>>>>>>>> >> having to read some huge manual :P
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >> the old saying "easy to learn difficult to master" yadda
>>>>>>>>>>>> yadda
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:13 PM, katie cook <
>>>>>>>>>>>> ktmcook@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> Okay guys, this is just my opinion. =) For me when I play
>>>>>>>>>>>> arcade-ish style
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> games like I the ones I think (if I understand correctly)
>>>>>>>>>>>> that we are trying
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> to make, I think Chris has got a really good point. I like
>>>>>>>>>>>> to take the
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> easiest route possible to get to the next step. Not that we
>>>>>>>>>>>> should flake on
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> stuff. But we should make sure to not scrutinize/overthink
>>>>>>>>>>>> things too much
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> if that makes sense.
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> I like the opportunity to get a little bit deeper with a
>>>>>>>>>>>> game if I choose
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> to at the time, but appreciate when I don't have to. Usually
>>>>>>>>>>>> arcades games
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> tend to be shorter in hours played. When I play a short
>>>>>>>>>>>> game, I don't wanna
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> have to invest a lot of time and deal with frivilous
>>>>>>>>>>>> features. The easier
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> the game the funner it is for me (for arcade/short games. I
>>>>>>>>>>>> hope this makes
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> sense.
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> --- On Tue, 6/23/09, Chris Riccobono <crysalim@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> From: Chris Riccobono <crysalim@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> Subject: [project1dev] Re: Project1 - SVN Update 270
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 9:46 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> 5 different jump levels is going to complicate things a bit
>>>>>>>>>>>> more than
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> we want. Try to keep in mind that the ideal is to make the
>>>>>>>>>>>> game more
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> fun. Ask yourself, will 5 different jumps enhance the game
>>>>>>>>>>>> enough to
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> warrant the amount of coding, designing, and bug testing
>>>>>>>>>>>> they will
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> require?
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> To reiterate what I tried to stress early on, we want the
>>>>>>>>>>>> game to be
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> as fun as possible, as simply as possible. Having a complex
>>>>>>>>>>>> game is
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> great if it enhances the experience, but if it doesn't, it
>>>>>>>>>>>> becomes a
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> hinderance - just another game, in other words.
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> To give you a specific example, your idea about armor making
>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> slower and jump shorter will generally make players avoid
>>>>>>>>>>>> doing that
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> in any instance they can. In action based games, skilled
>>>>>>>>>>>> players will
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> go towards what is as fast and damaging as possible, and
>>>>>>>>>>>> will avoid
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> things like that on purpose.
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> Also, having injuries slow you down will make players feel
>>>>>>>>>>>> like they
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> can't be damaged. For things like this you want to flip the
>>>>>>>>>>>> tables,
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> and instead create armor that gives players more speed, but
>>>>>>>>>>>> they take
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> more damage. It might seem like a small thing, but in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> eyes of a
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> player it can make a huge difference in gameplay.
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> Basically ask yourself if you would play the game and have
>>>>>>>>>>>> fun doing
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> the things you imagine.
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 6:14 PM, Alan Wolfe<
>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > you know the kind of cool thing about this too
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > we could actually make situations that you couldn't escape
>>>>>>>>>>>> from, and
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > have
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > things like pits that when you fall into them you die
>>>>>>>>>>>> instantly and
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > return
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > to the void.
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > those are really mean (literally!) features but if we use
>>>>>>>>>>>> them sparingly
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > or
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > in some kind of "i told you not to look in the box"
>>>>>>>>>>>> situations that
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > could be
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > actually pretty funny.
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > im not sure if you are down with it, but it would bring a
>>>>>>>>>>>> feeling of
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > mortality :P
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > ps i'll add the previous ideas to the wiki once i get home
>>>>>>>>>>>> if no one
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > else
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > has by then. I dont mind but just can't right now :P
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:44 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> yes - harsh but like i said, its an emergency only option
>>>>>>>>>>>> to be as a
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> last
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> resort... i think any other way of doing it will allow
>>>>>>>>>>>> too many holes
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> exploits (such as exp or item farming, etc)
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:43 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>> so would you lose all exp, gold and items gained then?
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:41 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> yeah i think that is what we';ll do, you can recall to
>>>>>>>>>>>> the void at
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> any
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> time but it effectively just restores a saved game so
>>>>>>>>>>>> you gain no
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> benefit to
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> it. We'll make this sort of a last ditch option, so
>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll try to
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> design it
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> so people never have to use it under normal
>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:39 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>> no, im just here to poke holes in your ideas <g>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>> jk but no im not sure... other than perhaps the player
>>>>>>>>>>>> can return to
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>> the void at any time, and the cost is that you've lost
>>>>>>>>>>>> all the time
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>> you've
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>> taken to progress to where you are (ie you have to
>>>>>>>>>>>> walk back)
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:38 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> wait i take that back, i'll have to think of a real
>>>>>>>>>>>> solution. any
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> ideas?
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:35 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> ok
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> is recall always going to be available?
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:35 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> recall
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:33 PM, Alan Wolfe
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> ok sounds good. the lax attitude and not needing
>>>>>>>>>>>> perfection
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> make it alot easier to test and build. We'll just
>>>>>>>>>>>> have to make
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> sure and
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> keep that in mind when designing things.
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> actually i think we will probably still have to do
>>>>>>>>>>>> a lot of
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> testing
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> with the various jumps to make sure people can't
>>>>>>>>>>>> get somewhere
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> they arent
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> meant to be that they cant get out of - ie i can
>>>>>>>>>>>> enter this
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> level 3 jump
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> area but i can't escape.
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> what's your thoughts on that situation?
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:29 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> well 2 things...
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> 1 - i am comfortable with the testing, i think
>>>>>>>>>>>> it'll add a lot
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> the game - what do you guys think?
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> 2 - alan i would really say we'd only need to
>>>>>>>>>>>> test for 2 things
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> the ability for level 2 to get past areas that
>>>>>>>>>>>> have no
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> non-jumping route
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> through and to make sure tier 5 people can't
>>>>>>>>>>>> exploit anything
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> we don't want
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> them too... i would say if a tier 3 person can
>>>>>>>>>>>> find a way to
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> get over
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> something designed as a secret for level 4
>>>>>>>>>>>> people, then that is
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> ok w/ me,
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> and likewise with level 4 getting to level 5
>>>>>>>>>>>> areas. if they
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> can find a way
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> to overcome the handicap, i dont want to stop
>>>>>>>>>>>> them :)
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Alan Wolfe
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> and of course another option is we just design
>>>>>>>>>>>> it where fine
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> tuned details like that aren't important
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> like if you can jump it instead of having to get
>>>>>>>>>>>> a rope and
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> climb
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> up, who cares!
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> but shrug just wanted to point out this aspect
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> solution!
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:17 PM, Alan Wolfe
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I like the idea. It deffinately makes thigns
>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> exploration
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> based since we could put places that you can't
>>>>>>>>>>>> get to while
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> starting out
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> This isn't a deal breaker but i want to point
>>>>>>>>>>>> out this will
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> increase testing and designing time:
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * all maps will have to be played with the
>>>>>>>>>>>> highest jump level
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> make sure they cant exploit anything they
>>>>>>>>>>>> shouldn't be able
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * all maps will have to played with the lowest
>>>>>>>>>>>> jump level to
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> make sure the minimum we want passable is
>>>>>>>>>>>> passable
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * for maps which have a specific jump
>>>>>>>>>>>> requirement areas (ie
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> level 3 lets you get to this area) we'll have
>>>>>>>>>>>> to play with
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> that level as
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> well as the next level down to make sure the
>>>>>>>>>>>> one below can't
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> get up too.
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:11 PM, eric drewes
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> what do you guys think of that scale? that
>>>>>>>>>>>> way we dont have
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> guess when we design and we have a baseline
>>>>>>>>>>>> standard
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 7:58 PM, eric drewes
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and a voice spoke from the mountain tops,
>>>>>>>>>>>> "and let it be
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spoken, there shall be 5 different tiers of
>>>>>>>>>>>> jumping
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ability, one for hardly
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any jump at all, the next for between the
>>>>>>>>>>>> current jump and
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the previous
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> levels not-really-a-jump, the third is what
>>>>>>>>>>>> is there now,
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the fourth for a
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jump equal to 1.5x as high/far as the 3rd
>>>>>>>>>>>> and a fifth that
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is triple the
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> normal jump - this will be reserved for
>>>>>>>>>>>> special facet,
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> item boosts or a max
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 100 quickness bonus.
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically it is like this:
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 1) barely a jump at all, this will be
>>>>>>>>>>>> for incredibly
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fat characters (w/ the fat facet) people
>>>>>>>>>>>> with super heavy
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> armor that they
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aren't strong enough to wear, incredibly
>>>>>>>>>>>> injured people,
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people with snake
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> torsos, etc :-P
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 2) this is what people wearing
>>>>>>>>>>>> plate/heavy chain
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> armor,
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or have relatively strong long injuries,
>>>>>>>>>>>> etc. etc. will
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 3) most characters will have this
>>>>>>>>>>>> jump, traps, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should be designed with this as the minimum
>>>>>>>>>>>> - though
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically we want it to
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be a challenge for level 3 people. some
>>>>>>>>>>>> areas can be
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> designed so it's
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible without level 4 though, but
>>>>>>>>>>>> nothing vital to
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> passing the map -
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also, traps/jump areas that aren't
>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible except
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through jumping should
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> use level 2 as a minimum.
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 4) super athletic character with light
>>>>>>>>>>>> or no armor
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have this, they can reach special areas the
>>>>>>>>>>>> other 3 levels
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't, jump
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> puzzles should be easier for level 4
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 5) these characters are magically
>>>>>>>>>>>> imbued or have
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> super
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> humanly agility, maybe they have little
>>>>>>>>>>>> wings, etc. by
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> passable traps, areas
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that can only be reached via long distance
>>>>>>>>>>>> travel, etc
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these characters have
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a big advantage on all jumping matters.
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 7:29 PM, Kent
>>>>>>>>>>>> Petersen
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Man, that sounds awful. At least we have
>>>>>>>>>>>> learned these
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lessons and now know how to prevent them
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 4:26 PM, Alan Wolfe
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> btw line rider had the same issues tee hee
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In line rider, people were exploiting a
>>>>>>>>>>>> simple physics
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation to do tricks like gravity wells
>>>>>>>>>>>> and nose
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> grinds and other stuff.
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when we made the commercial version of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> game we had
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make sure all the tricks were still
>>>>>>>>>>>> possible and we
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> brought in tech dawg to
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> play it and make sure everything was still
>>>>>>>>>>>> kosher.
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the parts that sucked - whenever we
>>>>>>>>>>>> optomized something
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the game it would break all existing test
>>>>>>>>>>>> maps we had
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made so we had to wait
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> til the very end of the game to make the
>>>>>>>>>>>> puzzle maps.
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also, since the DS, Wii and PC all have
>>>>>>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> floating
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point math chips in them (and ds had diff
>>>>>>>>>>>> code), maps
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't work the same
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on all the different platforms so we had
>>>>>>>>>>>> to keep sharing
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be on the same
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> platform it was created on.
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Alan
>>>>>>>>>>>> Wolfe
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its ok man ::shakes you:: the wars over,
>>>>>>>>>>>> nixon is outa
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> office now
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:48 PM, Kent
>>>>>>>>>>>> Petersen
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Kent is having megaman flashbacks*
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:47 PM, Alan
>>>>>>>>>>>> Wolfe
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> indeed! I'm going to re-iterate what
>>>>>>>>>>>> you said Kent
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so people understand the importance
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we should figure out how high / far we
>>>>>>>>>>>> want the
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be able to jump and how strong
>>>>>>>>>>>> gravity should be
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> muey importante~!
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> once we decide we can't change without
>>>>>>>>>>>> having to
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rebuild
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and rebalance any existing physics
>>>>>>>>>>>> dependant maps (ie
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skill jumps, gaps that
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the player should or should not be able
>>>>>>>>>>>> to jump over
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc) which is a total
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pain and could really be really really
>>>>>>>>>>>> destructive to
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our game having to
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rebuild and rebalance a whole bunch of
>>>>>>>>>>>> crap later.
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, lookin at you Eric, we should talk
>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finalizing.
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there anything specifically you for
>>>>>>>>>>>> sure want the
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player to be able to do? IE jump
>>>>>>>>>>>> across a certain
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> distance, jump over a
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> certain hight object etc
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:31 PM, Kent
>>>>>>>>>>>> Petersen
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What did you want to do for the first
>>>>>>>>>>>> trap? I
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> imagined
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that there would be 5 or so different
>>>>>>>>>>>> looking tiles.
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then there would be one
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct kind of tile (not the
>>>>>>>>>>>> diamond). Then the
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player would have to jump
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about through the tiles to the correct
>>>>>>>>>>>> ones. I
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figured it would work
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> similarly to the ones that were on
>>>>>>>>>>>> kenttest.
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What's your thoughts on that?
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Before you get to into designing the
>>>>>>>>>>>> temple I would
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> highly suggest that we nail down
>>>>>>>>>>>> player control and
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jumping physics. Let me
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> warn you from experience, if we change
>>>>>>>>>>>> how any of
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that works your temple
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will become obsolete.
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Kent
>>>>>>>>>>>> Petersen
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Been really busy today and will
>>>>>>>>>>>> probably be busy
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> next couple days. I would suggest
>>>>>>>>>>>> leaving the trap
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> areas open for now. If
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you are willing to push on anyway and
>>>>>>>>>>>> have specific
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> questions, send em my
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way and I will be happy to help out
>>>>>>>>>>>> when I get a
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chance.
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Alan
>>>>>>>>>>>> Wolfe
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Man that's awesome
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 2:16 PM,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Apache User
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <dhapache@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> User:rorac
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Message: Expanded a little on
>>>>>>>>>>>> templemap, added
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> template code as per Kent's
>>>>>>>>>>>> advisement.
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Need a sign (next room is diamond
>>>>>>>>>>>> path). Kent, I
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will need your help to help build
>>>>>>>>>>>> that part and
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> begin putting traps in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hallway (first right = first trap
>>>>>>>>>>>> area).
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Files Changed>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> U Scripts/Maps/templemap.lua
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A
>>>>>>>>>>>> Scripts/Maps/templemap_geometry.lua
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> ;>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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