[project1dev] Re: Project1 - SVN Update 270
- From: Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 22:13:23 -0700
well here's my take...
"will 5 different jumps enhance the game enough to warrant the amount of
coding, designing, and bug testing they will require?"
I had some concerns about design and testing that the multiple jumps would
bring up but those were all put to rest pretty well. Where it stands now, I
think it's ok from design because of the mentality of "if they find a way to
circumvent a jump power to them" and the recall with penalties takes care of
the problem of ever getting stuck. From a testing pov it does up the
testing a little bit, but again with that same attitude towards design of
"so what if they get there sooner", that eases testing time a lot so there
is testing impact but we arent talking about quadruple testing time anymore
or anything like that. Not even double, which is nice.
"In action based games, skilled players will go towards what is as fast and
damaging as possible, and will avoid things like that on purpose."
have you played tower defenses before? Whats the best strategy - build a
lot of weak towers, or build a few powerful towers? The answer of course is
it depends on the rules/costs/etc of the tower defense. In the same way,
that a player would go for what is as fast and as damaging as possible is
only a good thing if our game is set up with that being the optimal way to
play. For instance, what if we made it so damager per second (if we are
considering both speed and damage together) got much lower with faster
weapons, while slower weapons had huger dps but of course were lots slower.
It would make the area a lot greyer whether you want to 1 shot enemies (bad
against groups) or be able to spread your damage more thinly across multiple
targets with your speed (good against groups, bad against single targets).
From knowing where the concepts for our combat are coming (a lot of gemstone
in there) i know that there will be different times for different tactics
which make the variety a good thing, and if we do it well, what exactly the
rigth combination is will be masked pretty well if there even is 1 clear
path to optimum. Hopefully we'll have several optimal paths.
" think having two jump settings would be more feasible."
I kind of think if we stick to 5 jump strengths, it will feel more like an
analog setting instead of 5 distinct levels. Like the barb's jump skill in
D2, each little point helps a little but a single point isn't THAT
noticeable. Thats how i think it'll feel in the end but i could be wrong.
My 2 cents anyhow :P
On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Chris Riccobono <crysalim@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> I didn't add this to the last email - I think having two jump settings
> would be more feasible. If we need additional control over a jump
> beyond that, we can just implement slow/fast fall, flying, or other
> things.
>
> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 9:46 PM, Chris Riccobono<crysalim@xxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> > 5 different jump levels is going to complicate things a bit more than
> > we want. Try to keep in mind that the ideal is to make the game more
> > fun. Ask yourself, will 5 different jumps enhance the game enough to
> > warrant the amount of coding, designing, and bug testing they will
> > require?
> >
> > To reiterate what I tried to stress early on, we want the game to be
> > as fun as possible, as simply as possible. Having a complex game is
> > great if it enhances the experience, but if it doesn't, it becomes a
> > hinderance - just another game, in other words.
> >
> > To give you a specific example, your idea about armor making you
> > slower and jump shorter will generally make players avoid doing that
> > in any instance they can. In action based games, skilled players will
> > go towards what is as fast and damaging as possible, and will avoid
> > things like that on purpose.
> >
> > Also, having injuries slow you down will make players feel like they
> > can't be damaged. For things like this you want to flip the tables,
> > and instead create armor that gives players more speed, but they take
> > more damage. It might seem like a small thing, but in the eyes of a
> > player it can make a huge difference in gameplay.
> >
> > Basically ask yourself if you would play the game and have fun doing
> > the things you imagine.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 6:14 PM, Alan Wolfe<alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >> you know the kind of cool thing about this too
> >>
> >> we could actually make situations that you couldn't escape from, and
> have
> >> things like pits that when you fall into them you die instantly and
> return
> >> to the void.
> >>
> >> those are really mean (literally!) features but if we use them sparingly
> or
> >> in some kind of "i told you not to look in the box" situations that
> could be
> >> actually pretty funny.
> >>
> >> im not sure if you are down with it, but it would bring a feeling of
> >> mortality :P
> >>
> >> ps i'll add the previous ideas to the wiki once i get home if no one
> else
> >> has by then. I dont mind but just can't right now :P
> >> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:44 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> yes - harsh but like i said, its an emergency only option to be as a
> last
> >>> resort... i think any other way of doing it will allow too many holes
> for
> >>> exploits (such as exp or item farming, etc)
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:43 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> so would you lose all exp, gold and items gained then?
> >>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:41 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> yeah i think that is what we';ll do, you can recall to the void at
> any
> >>>>> time but it effectively just restores a saved game so you gain no
> benefit to
> >>>>> it. We'll make this sort of a last ditch option, so we'll try to
> design it
> >>>>> so people never have to use it under normal circumstances
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:39 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> no, im just here to poke holes in your ideas <g>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> jk but no im not sure... other than perhaps the player can return to
> >>>>>> the void at any time, and the cost is that you've lost all the time
> you've
> >>>>>> taken to progress to where you are (ie you have to walk back)
> >>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:38 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> wait i take that back, i'll have to think of a real solution. any
> >>>>>>> ideas?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:35 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> ok
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> is recall always going to be available?
> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:35 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> recall
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:33 PM, Alan Wolfe <
> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> ok sounds good. the lax attitude and not needing perfection
> will
> >>>>>>>>>> make it alot easier to test and build. We'll just have to make
> sure and
> >>>>>>>>>> keep that in mind when designing things.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> actually i think we will probably still have to do a lot of
> testing
> >>>>>>>>>> with the various jumps to make sure people can't get somewhere
> they arent
> >>>>>>>>>> meant to be that they cant get out of - ie i can enter this
> level 3 jump
> >>>>>>>>>> area but i can't escape.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> what's your thoughts on that situation?
> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:29 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx
> >
> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> well 2 things...
> >>>>>>>>>>> 1 - i am comfortable with the testing, i think it'll add a lot
> to
> >>>>>>>>>>> the game - what do you guys think?
> >>>>>>>>>>> 2 - alan i would really say we'd only need to test for 2 things
> -
> >>>>>>>>>>> the ability for level 2 to get past areas that have no
> non-jumping route
> >>>>>>>>>>> through and to make sure tier 5 people can't exploit anything
> we don't want
> >>>>>>>>>>> them too... i would say if a tier 3 person can find a way to
> get over
> >>>>>>>>>>> something designed as a secret for level 4 people, then that is
> ok w/ me,
> >>>>>>>>>>> and likewise with level 4 getting to level 5 areas. if they
> can find a way
> >>>>>>>>>>> to overcome the handicap, i dont want to stop them :)
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Alan Wolfe <
> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and of course another option is we just design it where fine
> >>>>>>>>>>>> tuned details like that aren't important
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> like if you can jump it instead of having to get a rope and
> climb
> >>>>>>>>>>>> up, who cares!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> but shrug just wanted to point out this aspect of the
> solution!
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:17 PM, Alan Wolfe
> >>>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I like the idea. It deffinately makes thigns more
> exploration
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> based since we could put places that you can't get to while
> starting out
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> This isn't a deal breaker but i want to point out this will
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> increase testing and designing time:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> * all maps will have to be played with the highest jump level
> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> make sure they cant exploit anything they shouldn't be able
> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> * all maps will have to played with the lowest jump level to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> make sure the minimum we want passable is passable
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> * for maps which have a specific jump requirement areas (ie
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> level 3 lets you get to this area) we'll have to play with
> that level as
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> well as the next level down to make sure the one below can't
> get up too.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:11 PM, eric drewes <
> figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> what do you guys think of that scale? that way we dont have
> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> guess when we design and we have a baseline standard
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 7:58 PM, eric drewes
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and a voice spoke from the mountain tops, "and let it be
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spoken, there shall be 5 different tiers of jumping
> ability, one for hardly
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any jump at all, the next for between the current jump and
> the previous
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> levels not-really-a-jump, the third is what is there now,
> the fourth for a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jump equal to 1.5x as high/far as the 3rd and a fifth that
> is triple the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> normal jump - this will be reserved for special facet,
> item boosts or a max
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 100 quickness bonus.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically it is like this:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 1) barely a jump at all, this will be for incredibly
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fat characters (w/ the fat facet) people with super heavy
> armor that they
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aren't strong enough to wear, incredibly injured people,
> people with snake
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> torsos, etc :-P
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 2) this is what people wearing plate/heavy chain
> armor,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or have relatively strong long injuries, etc. etc. will
> have
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 3) most characters will have this jump, traps, etc.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should be designed with this as the minimum - though
> basically we want it to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be a challenge for level 3 people. some areas can be
> designed so it's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible without level 4 though, but nothing vital to
> passing the map -
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also, traps/jump areas that aren't accessible except
> through jumping should
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> use level 2 as a minimum.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 4) super athletic character with light or no armor
> will
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have this, they can reach special areas the other 3 levels
> can't, jump
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> puzzles should be easier for level 4
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 5) these characters are magically imbued or have
> super
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> humanly agility, maybe they have little wings, etc. by
> passable traps, areas
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that can only be reached via long distance travel, etc
> these characters have
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a big advantage on all jumping matters.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 7:29 PM, Kent Petersen
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Man, that sounds awful. At least we have learned these
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lessons and now know how to prevent them
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 4:26 PM, Alan Wolfe
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> btw line rider had the same issues tee hee
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In line rider, people were exploiting a simple physics
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation to do tricks like gravity wells and nose
> grinds and other stuff.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when we made the commercial version of the game we had
> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make sure all the tricks were still possible and we
> brought in tech dawg to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> play it and make sure everything was still kosher.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the parts that sucked - whenever we optomized something
> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the game it would break all existing test maps we had
> made so we had to wait
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> til the very end of the game to make the puzzle maps.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also, since the DS, Wii and PC all have different
> floating
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point math chips in them (and ds had diff code), maps
> wouldn't work the same
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on all the different platforms so we had to keep sharing
> to be on the same
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> platform it was created on.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Alan Wolfe
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its ok man ::shakes you:: the wars over, nixon is outa
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> office now
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:48 PM, Kent Petersen
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Kent is having megaman flashbacks*
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:47 PM, Alan Wolfe
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> indeed! I'm going to re-iterate what you said Kent
> just
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so people understand the importance
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we should figure out how high / far we want the
> player
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be able to jump and how strong gravity should be
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> muey importante~!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> once we decide we can't change without having to
> rebuild
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and rebalance any existing physics dependant maps (ie
> skill jumps, gaps that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the player should or should not be able to jump over
> etc) which is a total
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pain and could really be really really destructive to
> our game having to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rebuild and rebalance a whole bunch of crap later.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, lookin at you Eric, we should talk about
> finalizing.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there anything specifically you for sure want the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player to be able to do? IE jump across a certain
> distance, jump over a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> certain hight object etc
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:31 PM, Kent Petersen
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What did you want to do for the first trap? I
> imagined
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that there would be 5 or so different looking tiles.
> Then there would be one
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct kind of tile (not the diamond). Then the
> player would have to jump
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about through the tiles to the correct ones. I
> figured it would work
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> similarly to the ones that were on kenttest.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What's your thoughts on that?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Before you get to into designing the temple I would
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> highly suggest that we nail down player control and
> jumping physics. Let me
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> warn you from experience, if we change how any of
> that works your temple
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will become obsolete.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Kent Petersen
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Been really busy today and will probably be busy
> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> next couple days. I would suggest leaving the trap
> areas open for now. If
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you are willing to push on anyway and have specific
> questions, send em my
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way and I will be happy to help out when I get a
> chance.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Alan Wolfe
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Man that's awesome
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 2:16 PM, Apache User
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <dhapache@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> User:rorac
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Message: Expanded a little on templemap, added
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> template code as per Kent's advisement.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Need a sign (next room is diamond path). Kent, I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will need your help to help build that part and
> begin putting traps in the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hallway (first right = first trap area).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Files Changed>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> U Scripts/Maps/templemap.lua
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A Scripts/Maps/templemap_geometry.lua
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
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