[project1dev] Re: Project1 - SVN Update 270

  • From: Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:35:12 -0500

I like to mix things up a little, but try to keep an open mind here!
No levels of jumping! That's right, none. You can jump, that's it.

Jumping is a stat based on quickness, facets, skills, armor, injuries, and
special scenario items/boosts/uses.  As the player went along in the game,
increased their stats, got facets, etc; their ability to jump would increase
marginally rather than "look I suddenly jump higher".  An analog system
would allow for extreme versatility without having to measure out specific
jump levels.  Getting injuries could slow you down in minor/major degrees,
rather than "will this injury drop me down a jump level?" same goes for
armor.

Re: Redux.  Yeah, back in Gemstone3 I was a master of the system and for my
level was point-by-point the toughest warrior in the game.  Gemstone4
changed the system and it became to fuzzy to learn (nobody would release the
exact system either), and I wasn't about to test warriors from 0 to 30 for
another year to try and figure it out. :\




On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 8:27 AM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> i want to explicitely thank chris, alan and katie for offering the counter
> points to my original thought, i really think having alternate perspectives
> of things will allow us to fully explore elements of game design like this
> and that it will ultimately deliver a better, more intuitive and most
> importantly more FUN gaming experience.  I do not mind debating the points
> as I have done below because frankly, if I cannot defend the game design
> philosophy then the system we're discussing is probably broken and i need to
> work on it some more.  besides that, it has been my experience in designing
> the combat with nick that when debating ideas like this it occasionally
> inspires great new ideas.  I actually consider this to be a vital part of
> "pre-testing" so please, I encourage you to continue offering your insights
> and perspectives!
>
> To give you a specific example, your idea about armor making you
> slower and jump shorter will generally make players avoid doing that
> in any instance they can.  In action based games, skilled players will
> go towards what is as fast and damaging as possible, and will avoid
> things like that on purpose.
>
> - this is by design, we want to encourage people who are exploring to use
> lighter armor, it makes no sense to go on a journey into a mysterious temple
> that is bound to have traps, puzzles, etc. in full plate armor.  We want
> that style of armor to be reserved for people who accept the penalty of
> speed/jumping for the enhanced ability to take hits without getting damage.
> this is a player choice.
>
> Also, having injuries slow you down will make players feel like they
> can't be damaged.  For things like this you want to flip the tables,
> and instead create armor that gives players more speed, but they take
> more damage.  It might seem like a small thing, but in the eyes of a
> player it can make a huge difference in gameplay.
>
> - also by design. We want players to feel like there are concequences to
> being injured and it should be avoided as much as possible.  There are
> penalties for being injured or dying - that is a major part of the combat
> design here.  We are trying to break away from the constant
> healing/ressurection that has been the common thread in most rpgs.  we're
> trying to get away from the attrition system. more info on this below
>
> Basically ask yourself if you would play the game and have fun doing
> the things you imagine.
>
> - one of my favorite gaming experiences is america's army, and what makes
> it so great and so immersive is that you are constantly in fear of your life
> so there is actual tension on the battle field, its not like tf2 where you
> run out, spam attacks and if you get killed, oh well, respawn.  I love the
> idea of players figuring out the best strategies to stay alive and learning
> tactics and skills to do it. yes, it is a challenge - but that is what makes
> it so great! Another game I love, as alan pointed out, is gemstone.
> Gemstone was ruthless with one shot kills, getting your leg chopped off and
> not being able to climb stuff, etc.  like there's areas in the game you have
> to take your armor off and be athletic enough to jump in order to make it
> over there.  staying alive is a major part of that game and everytime you
> got hit, you would bleed and feel the effects of it.  as a player you had to
> learn to adapt your skills and player style to prevent yourself from getting
> damaged as much as possible.  this is a key element to the game design we
> are trying to go with.  so to answer your question - yes, i think it'd be
> fun :P
>
>
> Okay guys, this is just my opinion. =) For me when I play arcade-ish style
> games like I the ones I think (if I understand correctly) that we are trying
> to make, I think Chris has got a really good point. I like to take the
> easiest route possible to get to the next step. Not that we should flake on
> stuff. But we should make sure to not scrutinize/overthink things too much
> if that makes sense.
>
> - this is an rpg, not an arcade game! :P  the emphasis is on exploration,
> not just going as quickly as you can to get to the next level (although you
> can if you so choose).  what makes rpg's (and adventure games) fun for me is
> finding all the little secrets that are hidden all over the world.  also,
> everyone is acting like 5 settings is so complex, really the first one is
> only for special case scenarios and isn't meant to be used during actual
> gameplay, and the 5th one is really only to serve as a special thing for use
> like spells, flying, etc. there are only 3 main ones, a weak jump for
> heavily armored players, a normal one for most people, and a long jump for
> people who choose to sacrifice armor for speed and manueverability
>
> I'd bet this jump level thing would more or less be invisible / automatic
> to the player.  Like when you were heavier you just dont jump as high or as
> far.  The player might not know there are 5 levels of jumping ability, they
> might just realize "hey when i take off my armor i can make that jump to
> that cave i couldnt get to before" (and of course maybe an NPC tips you off
> to that fact).  Or there are boots that have the description of "wear to be
> able to jump higher"
>
> -right, this is all an under the hood system.  its funny because when i
> write stories, etc. i try to keep things as close to the vest because i like
> the reader to be surprised, i like keeping a mystery and something for them
> to discover for themselves.  this is also true in my game design philosophy,
> give players a ton of neat stuff they can find out for themselves if they
> want to... the irony is, as a team we're ALL under the hood so i have to
> express all the hidden things to you guys so it can get made/discussed, but
> then everyone is like "oh that is overly complicated there's no reason for
> that!" without putting themselves in the shoes of the player who doesn't
> even know the system exists and that its just there for them to discover if
> they are curious and interested.
>
> 5 different jumps will matter only as much as we design the game for
> them to matter.  In Diablo 2, the barb jump skill only let you cross
> certain terrain that wasn't walkable, so having so many different jump
> lengths was easily solved - just make the pits larger.  If we can find
> an easy solution in our game - an equivalent to "just making the pits
> larger" - then we can add as many jumps as we want, and even make them
> scale into flying!
>
> I recently learned how to do the shinespark tricks in Metroid
> Redesign, and if we could make our jumps in the game require a skill
> curve somehow, that would reward the player for the ability to jump
> higher... almost like how in 3d Mario games, you have to jump right as
> you hit the ground again, within a certain amount of time, so you can
> do the triple jump.
>
> -i actually view it as a really simple system that allows for a lot of neat
> versatility in game design and player strategy... something that allows for
> more skill based movement if people are interested because i know some crazy
> people (like nick) enjoy finding crazy challenges and trying to exploit
> gameplay tools to get into areas, etc.  i think that is fun and great and
> should be part of our design.  i picked 5 as the number so there would be
> differences between teh playing styles while keeping things we needed to
> design/test for to the minimum.
>
> okay so lets get down to brass tacks here (how much for the monkey?) (3
> adunai points to whoever gets the reference)
>
> IMO we have 2 options:
> a) 2 jump system - 1 for armor too heavy for you (basically, non-jumping)
> and 1 for normal.
> pros: easier to design for, easier to test for, no need to think about
> armor choices for the player beyond "is it too heavy?"
> cons: less versatile, no differences between wearing light/heavy/medium
> armor for adventurers, no hidden areas only accessible by people who invest
> and discover ways to jump farther.
>
> b) 5 jump system - as illustrated above
> pros: more for the player to discover, another "tool" in our tool box,
> gives extra strengths/weaknesses when picking armor and character style
> cons: harder to design/test, may baffle some characters.
>
> now obviously i am biased towards B (the 5 jump system) so my pitch for it
> is, it'll be simpler in practice for the player/designer than it may seem to
> you right now, it's important for game balance between heavy/light armor,
> players can really just make sure they are at level 3 (normal) and they will
> be able to get through the entire game without worrying about the difference
> in jump so i think there is zero bafflement chance, and it gives us another
> neat tool for desiging exploration and hidden stuff in the game.
>
>
> I am definitely open-minded and can be convinced to go with A) - so lets
> open it up to the forum and take a little poll and if you want to post
> comments/thoughts/ideas - then it'll give us more information to make a good
> and intelligent decision.
>
> :)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 7:55 AM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> i didnt have time to read everythign yet but basically here is my take...
>> level 1 is basically a "your character is broken level" and doesnt need to
>> be designed for, its basically a penalty thing we can use.  it is the
>> extreme
>>
>> level 2 is needed to differentiate heavy armor from light armor
>>
>> level 3 is what we will design for, it is "normal"
>>
>> level 4 is to sepparate quick characters with ultra light armor from
>> people wearing normal armor
>>
>> level 5 is a special case scenario type of thing
>>
>> we're basically just designing the game for level 3, with maybe a small
>> amount of special case scenario areas for level 4/5 (like under 2-3 per
>> chapter)
>>
>> i really don't think that it is overly complicated at all and this will be
>> a SUBTLE thing, i.e. again, most of the things like this are only designed
>> for people who want the bonus, but dont have to have it
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 3:01 AM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>> yeah actually thats a good point, i remember playin zelda and you see
>>> objects which are obviously repeated (ie black rocks in link to the past, or
>>> the docks in zelda 1 etc) and knowing "there is something up with those" but
>>> you dont know til you have the item.  I forgot about that, that was kinda
>>> fun gameplay :P
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:47 PM, Chris Riccobono <crysalim@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yeah, that's part of the fun of Zelda and Metroid style games... getting
>>>> those items that make you able to do things you didn't predict were
>>>> possible, so then the player wonders what cool thing is gonna come out next
>>>> :)
>>>> That's a pretty cool idea for introducing game mechanics.. the player
>>>> doesn't know about them at all in the game until they actually get the item
>>>> for it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> yeah totally i agree with you.
>>>>>
>>>>> we were talkin about this before, we were saying having lots of
>>>>> optional things to discover in a game makes it seem bigger because we 
>>>>> don't
>>>>> advertise what the "edges" are.
>>>>>
>>>>> so yeah totally, if we advertise there are 5 jump levels it ruins the
>>>>> magic, but if the player discovers "wtf i jump higher now?" they might try
>>>>> to see just how high they can jump.  Maybe they get to level 4 and never 
>>>>> cap
>>>>> out at level 5, as far as they know the sky is the limit even though they
>>>>> are almost at the cieling hehe.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:36 PM, Chris Riccobono 
>>>>> <crysalim@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, about the player not knowing there will be 5 jump levels, that
>>>>>> would trigger the "yay I discovered something" emotion.  It's really
>>>>>> fun to learn how to do something to reach new places, you know?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:35 PM, Chris Riccobono<crysalim@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> > I do believe simplicity brings about the most fun when done
>>>>>> correctly!
>>>>>> >  I think part of the fun of a game is learning how to use the
>>>>>> system,
>>>>>> > too, so when you can learn it very easy at first, you are open to
>>>>>> > learning new mechanics as things go on.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:27 PM, Alan Wolfe<alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> >> You deffinately have a good point.  Our game isn't arcadey per se
>>>>>> but it is
>>>>>> >> a game where you can go deeper if you want but don't have to.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Like there will be lots to explore but it's all optional (Eric
>>>>>> correct me if
>>>>>> >> im wrong lol).
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> I'd bet this jump level thing would more or less be invisible /
>>>>>> automatic to
>>>>>> >> the player.  Like when you were heavier you just dont jump as high
>>>>>> or as
>>>>>> >> far.  The player might not know there are 5 levels of jumping
>>>>>> ability, they
>>>>>> >> might just realize "hey when i take off my armor i can make that
>>>>>> jump to
>>>>>> >> that cave i couldnt get to before" (and of course maybe an NPC tips
>>>>>> you off
>>>>>> >> to that fact).  Or there are boots that have the description of
>>>>>> "wear to be
>>>>>> >> able to jump higher"
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> But yeah there is deffinate wisdom to keeping it simple, especially
>>>>>> keeping
>>>>>> >> the end result the player sees simple.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Someone should be able to pick up the game and be able to play
>>>>>> without
>>>>>> >> having to read some huge manual :P
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> the old saying "easy to learn difficult to master" yadda yadda
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:13 PM, katie cook <ktmcook@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Okay guys, this is just my opinion. =) For me when I play
>>>>>> arcade-ish style
>>>>>> >>> games like I the ones I think (if I understand correctly) that we
>>>>>> are trying
>>>>>> >>> to make, I think Chris has got a really good point. I like to take
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> >>> easiest route possible to get to the next step. Not that we should
>>>>>> flake on
>>>>>> >>> stuff. But we should make sure to not scrutinize/overthink things
>>>>>> too much
>>>>>> >>> if that makes sense.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> I like the opportunity to get a little bit deeper with a game if I
>>>>>> choose
>>>>>> >>> to at the time, but appreciate when I don't have to. Usually
>>>>>> arcades games
>>>>>> >>> tend to be shorter in hours played. When I play a short game, I
>>>>>> don't wanna
>>>>>> >>> have to invest a lot of time and deal with frivilous features. The
>>>>>> easier
>>>>>> >>> the game the funner it is for me (for arcade/short games. I hope
>>>>>> this makes
>>>>>> >>> sense.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> --- On Tue, 6/23/09, Chris Riccobono <crysalim@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> From: Chris Riccobono <crysalim@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> >>> Subject: [project1dev] Re: Project1 - SVN Update 270
>>>>>> >>> To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> >>> Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 9:46 PM
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> 5 different jump levels is going to complicate things a bit more
>>>>>> than
>>>>>> >>> we want.  Try to keep in mind that the ideal is to make the game
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> >>> fun.  Ask yourself, will 5 different jumps enhance the game enough
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> >>> warrant the amount of coding, designing, and bug testing they will
>>>>>> >>> require?
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> To reiterate what I tried to stress early on, we want the game to
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> >>> as fun as possible, as simply as possible.  Having a complex game
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> >>> great if it enhances the experience, but if it doesn't, it becomes
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> >>> hinderance - just another game, in other words.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> To give you a specific example, your idea about armor making you
>>>>>> >>> slower and jump shorter will generally make players avoid doing
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> >>> in any instance they can.  In action based games, skilled players
>>>>>> will
>>>>>> >>> go towards what is as fast and damaging as possible, and will
>>>>>> avoid
>>>>>> >>> things like that on purpose.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Also, having injuries slow you down will make players feel like
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> >>> can't be damaged.  For things like this you want to flip the
>>>>>> tables,
>>>>>> >>> and instead create armor that gives players more speed, but they
>>>>>> take
>>>>>> >>> more damage.  It might seem like a small thing, but in the eyes of
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> >>> player it can make a huge difference in gameplay.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Basically ask yourself if you would play the game and have fun
>>>>>> doing
>>>>>> >>> the things you imagine.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 6:14 PM, Alan Wolfe<alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> >>> > you know the kind of cool thing about this too
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> > we could actually make situations that you couldn't escape from,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> >>> > have
>>>>>> >>> > things like pits that when you fall into them you die instantly
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> >>> > return
>>>>>> >>> > to the void.
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> > those are really mean (literally!) features but if we use them
>>>>>> sparingly
>>>>>> >>> > or
>>>>>> >>> > in some kind of "i told you not to look in the box" situations
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> >>> > could be
>>>>>> >>> > actually pretty funny.
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> > im not sure if you are down with it, but it would bring a
>>>>>> feeling of
>>>>>> >>> > mortality :P
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> > ps i'll add the previous ideas to the wiki once i get home if no
>>>>>> one
>>>>>> >>> > else
>>>>>> >>> > has by then.  I dont mind but just can't right now :P
>>>>>> >>> > On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:44 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>>> >>> >> yes - harsh but like i said, its an emergency only option to be
>>>>>> as a
>>>>>> >>> >> last
>>>>>> >>> >> resort... i think any other way of doing it will allow too many
>>>>>> holes
>>>>>> >>> >> for
>>>>>> >>> >> exploits (such as exp or item farming, etc)
>>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>>> >>> >> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:43 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> >>> >> wrote:
>>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> >>> so would you lose all exp, gold and items gained then?
>>>>>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:41 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> >>> >>> wrote:
>>>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>> yeah i think that is what we';ll do, you can recall to the
>>>>>> void at
>>>>>> >>> >>>> any
>>>>>> >>> >>>> time but it effectively just restores a saved game so you
>>>>>> gain no
>>>>>> >>> >>>> benefit to
>>>>>> >>> >>>> it.  We'll make this sort of a last ditch option, so we'll
>>>>>> try to
>>>>>> >>> >>>> design it
>>>>>> >>> >>>> so people never have to use it under normal circumstances
>>>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:39 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> >>> >>>> wrote:
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> no, im just here to poke holes in your ideas <g>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> jk but no im not sure... other than perhaps the player can
>>>>>> return to
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> the void at any time, and the cost is that you've lost all
>>>>>> the time
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> you've
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> taken to progress to where you are (ie you have to walk
>>>>>> back)
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:38 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> wait i take that back, i'll have to think of a real
>>>>>> solution.  any
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> ideas?
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:35 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> ok
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> is recall always going to be available?
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:35 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> recall
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:33 PM, Alan Wolfe
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> ok sounds good.  the lax attitude and not needing
>>>>>> perfection
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> make it alot easier to test and build.  We'll just have
>>>>>> to make
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> sure and
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> keep that in mind when designing things.
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> actually i think we will probably still have to do a lot
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> testing
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> with the various jumps to make sure people can't get
>>>>>> somewhere
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> they arent
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> meant to be that they cant get out of - ie i can enter
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> level 3 jump
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> area but i can't escape.
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> what's your thoughts on that situation?
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:29 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> well 2 things...
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> 1 - i am comfortable with the testing, i think it'll
>>>>>> add a lot
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> the game - what do you guys think?
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> 2 - alan i would really say we'd only need to test for
>>>>>> 2 things
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> the ability for level 2 to get past areas that have no
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> non-jumping route
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> through and to make sure tier 5 people can't exploit
>>>>>> anything
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> we don't want
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> them too... i would say if a tier 3 person can find a
>>>>>> way to
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> get over
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> something designed as a secret for level 4 people, then
>>>>>> that is
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> ok w/ me,
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> and likewise with level 4 getting to level 5 areas.  if
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> can find a way
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> to overcome the handicap, i dont want to stop them :)
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Alan Wolfe
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> and of course another option is we just design it
>>>>>> where fine
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> tuned details like that aren't important
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> like if you can jump it instead of having to get a
>>>>>> rope and
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> climb
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> up, who cares!
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> but shrug just wanted to point out this aspect of the
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> solution!
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:17 PM, Alan Wolfe
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I like the idea.  It deffinately makes thigns more
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> exploration
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> based since we could put places that you can't get to
>>>>>> while
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> starting out
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> This isn't a deal breaker but i want to point out
>>>>>> this will
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> increase testing and designing time:
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * all maps will have to be played with the highest
>>>>>> jump level
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> make sure they cant exploit anything they shouldn't
>>>>>> be able
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * all maps will have to played with the lowest jump
>>>>>> level to
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> make sure the minimum we want passable is passable
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * for maps which have a specific jump requirement
>>>>>> areas (ie
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> level 3 lets you get to this area) we'll have to play
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> that level as
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> well as the next level down to make sure the one
>>>>>> below can't
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> get up too.
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:11 PM, eric drewes
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> what do you guys think of that scale?  that way we
>>>>>> dont have
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> guess when we design and we have a baseline standard
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 7:58 PM, eric drewes
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and a voice spoke from the mountain tops, "and let
>>>>>> it be
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spoken, there shall be 5 different tiers of
>>>>>> jumping
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ability, one for hardly
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any jump at all, the next for between the current
>>>>>> jump and
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the previous
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> levels not-really-a-jump, the third is what is
>>>>>> there now,
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the fourth for a
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jump equal to 1.5x as high/far as the 3rd and a
>>>>>> fifth that
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is triple the
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> normal jump - this will be reserved for special
>>>>>> facet,
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> item boosts or a max
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 100 quickness bonus.
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically it is like this:
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 1) barely a jump at all, this will be for
>>>>>> incredibly
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fat characters (w/ the fat facet) people with
>>>>>> super heavy
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> armor that they
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aren't strong enough to wear, incredibly injured
>>>>>> people,
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people with snake
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> torsos, etc :-P
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 2) this is what people wearing plate/heavy
>>>>>> chain
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> armor,
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or have relatively strong long injuries, etc. etc.
>>>>>> will
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 3) most characters will have this jump,
>>>>>> traps, etc.
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should be designed with this as the minimum -
>>>>>> though
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically we want it to
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be a challenge for level 3 people.  some areas can
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> designed so it's
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible without level 4 though, but nothing
>>>>>> vital to
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> passing the map -
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also, traps/jump areas that aren't accessible
>>>>>> except
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through jumping should
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> use level 2 as a minimum.
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 4) super athletic character with light or no
>>>>>> armor
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have this, they can reach special areas the other
>>>>>> 3 levels
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't, jump
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> puzzles should be easier for level 4
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 5) these characters are magically imbued or
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> super
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> humanly agility, maybe they have little wings,
>>>>>> etc. by
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> passable traps, areas
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that can only be reached via long distance travel,
>>>>>> etc
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these characters have
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a big advantage on all jumping matters.
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 7:29 PM, Kent Petersen
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Man, that sounds awful. At least we have learned
>>>>>> these
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lessons and now know how to prevent them
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 4:26 PM, Alan Wolfe
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> btw line rider had the same issues tee hee
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In line rider, people were exploiting a simple
>>>>>> physics
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation to do tricks like gravity wells and
>>>>>> nose
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> grinds and other stuff.
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when we made the commercial version of the game
>>>>>> we had
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make sure all the tricks were still possible and
>>>>>> we
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> brought in tech dawg to
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> play it and make sure everything was still
>>>>>> kosher.
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the parts that sucked - whenever we optomized
>>>>>> something
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the game it would break all existing test maps
>>>>>> we had
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made so we had to wait
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> til the very end of the game to make the puzzle
>>>>>> maps.
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also, since the DS, Wii and PC all have
>>>>>> different
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> floating
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point math chips in them (and ds had diff code),
>>>>>> maps
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't work the same
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on all the different platforms so we had to keep
>>>>>> sharing
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be on the same
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> platform it was created on.
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Alan Wolfe
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its ok man ::shakes you:: the wars over, nixon
>>>>>> is outa
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> office now
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:48 PM, Kent Petersen
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Kent is having megaman flashbacks*
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:47 PM, Alan Wolfe
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> indeed!  I'm going to re-iterate what you
>>>>>> said Kent
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so people understand the importance
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we should figure out how high / far we want
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be able to jump and how strong gravity
>>>>>> should be
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> muey importante~!
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> once we decide we can't change without having
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rebuild
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and rebalance any existing physics dependant
>>>>>> maps (ie
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skill jumps, gaps that
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the player should or should not be able to
>>>>>> jump over
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc) which is a total
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pain and could really be really really
>>>>>> destructive to
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our game having to
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rebuild and rebalance a whole bunch of crap
>>>>>> later.
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, lookin at you Eric, we should talk about
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finalizing.
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there anything specifically you for sure
>>>>>> want the
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player to be able to do?  IE jump across a
>>>>>> certain
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> distance, jump over a
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> certain hight object etc
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:31 PM, Kent
>>>>>> Petersen
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What did you want to do for the first trap?
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> imagined
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that there would be 5 or so different
>>>>>> looking tiles.
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then there would be one
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct kind of tile (not the diamond). Then
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player would have to jump
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about through the tiles to the correct ones.
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figured it would work
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> similarly to the ones that were on kenttest.
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What's your thoughts on that?
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Before you get to into designing the temple
>>>>>> I would
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> highly suggest that we nail down player
>>>>>> control and
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jumping physics. Let me
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> warn you from experience, if we change how
>>>>>> any of
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that works your temple
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will become obsolete.
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Kent
>>>>>> Petersen
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Been really busy today and will probably be
>>>>>> busy
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> next couple days. I would suggest leaving
>>>>>> the trap
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> areas open for now. If
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you are willing to push on anyway and have
>>>>>> specific
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> questions, send em my
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way and I will be happy to help out when I
>>>>>> get a
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chance.
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Alan Wolfe
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Man that's awesome
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 2:16 PM, Apache
>>>>>> User
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <dhapache@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> User:rorac
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Message: Expanded a little on templemap,
>>>>>> added
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> template code as per Kent's advisement.
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Need a sign (next room is diamond path).
>>>>>> Kent, I
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will need your help to help build that
>>>>>> part and
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> begin putting traps in the
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hallway (first right = first trap area).
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Files Changed>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> U   Scripts/Maps/templemap.lua
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A   Scripts/Maps/templemap_geometry.lua
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >&gt ;>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

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