That is probably the main problem. I have been recently struck by the fact that in job postings, "senior" is associated to 5 years of experience and "expert" to 10 years for system engineers, and to 1 or 2 for the first epithet and 3 for the second one for developers/architects (wow). DBAs are somewhere in between, depending probably on the PHB's perception. The experienced people are just here to fix the mistakes of the inexperienced ones. But when you have architecture wrong ... Whatever you can do fixing the servers, it pales besides what you could do by refactoring the programs. I have tried for years to "sell" in a big bank the idea of setting up a small team of really experienced developers, and letting them loose with the mission of spending two/three weeks on one key program, improving things and teaching young developers (who for the most part are inexperienced but far from stupid) in the process, then moving on. Crying in the wilderness. It's so comfortable to buy more iron. SF -- //www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l