The requirements on MSOs to pass through PSIP, if provided, is in 97-80. I thought you made a PSIP generator? Are you selling to MSOs, too? Adam Goldberg adam_g@xxxxxxxxx -----Original Message----- From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John Willkie Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 7:13 PM To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [opendtv] Re: News: DIGITAL TV OPENS UP TWO-WAY OPPORTUNITIES In the R&O in MB Dkt 07-91 (release December 31, 2007), the commission mentioned this aspect and said in the cable companion proceeding (MB Dkt 07-120?) that they would address this issue. I'd add "again." The FCC is learning in this respect. A few years back, they thought they "made clear" that stations need to transmit EPG information in Event Information Tables. As an Gomer Thomas at Triveni Digital first pointed out to me, the language ACTUALLY only mandated the transmission of Event Information Tables. As you and I know, one can transmit Event Information Tables, per ATSC A/65, that have no events listed, so they left a work-around. (Triveni Digital units, judging by my transport stream captures, do just this in the absence of EPG information.) My PSIP generator does something quite different. When there is no EPG information, it presents the "default event" and "default description" for that channel. The default event title might be "Regular KXXX-HD programming" and the "default description" could include information about the channel. The new rules will require accurate program listings, including sports overruns. This is a big deal; it technically mandates that every station have a live connection between automation and the PSIP generator, or have an operator ready to make real-time EPG changes. Even network-owned station groups will have issues with this new rule. I suspect that many won't 'get real' until the FCC imposes fines. It would be a bad idea, methinks, for me to "report" prospects and customers of other vendors to the FCC. In other words, it doesn't put me in a good position to sell them things in the future. But "you could be fined otherwise" is a good reason to upgrade your PSIP generator. John Willkie -----Mensaje original----- De: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] En nombre de Adam Goldberg Enviado el: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 3:52 PM Para: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Asunto: [opendtv] Re: News: DIGITAL TV OPENS UP TWO-WAY OPPORTUNITIES The operators are required to pass through PSIP, when received from the broadcaster. If you find any systems that aren't doing that, it should be reasonably easy to complain to the MSO and/or FCC. Adam Goldberg adam_g@xxxxxxxxx -----Original Message----- From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John Willkie Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 1:59 PM To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [opendtv] Re: News: DIGITAL TV OPENS UP TWO-WAY OPPORTUNITIES Point taken. So, the argument from stripping PSIP out of the multiplex -- which the FCC explicitly requires cable to pass on -- is _____? In terms of bit-budget, My first customer has six virtual channels, each with 15 hours of titles and descriptions. Bit budget? Circa 100 kilobits per second. If the argument is that "some" broadcasters don't know what they're doing (announcing sap audio but not offering it), I'd say that there are worse cases of that around, and I trust things will get better as broadcasters focus on making money with DTV. John Willkie -----Mensaje original----- De: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] En nombre de Adam Goldberg Enviado el: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 7:56 AM Para: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Asunto: [opendtv] Re: News: DIGITAL TV OPENS UP TWO-WAY OPPORTUNITIES I was getting ready to write "First of all, "every bit" is a bit of hyperbole. AFD takes 6 /bytes/ per frame." But then a buddy of mine called, who is a senior engineering type at a very large MSO and has a big hand in creating the multiplexes they send to each head-end. I asked him about stripping AFD. His response was: "That's the craziest thing I've ever heard". In fact, he said, he has several channels where SAP was supposed to be provided but isn't, so it's provisioned but not supplied. If he were to go looking to save a few hundred kbps, he'd start unprovisioning the SAPs, not worrying about 1440bps of AFD. He then went on to say that they'd like there to be MORE AFD supplied so they can actually use it. -----Original Message----- From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John Willkie Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 6:00 PM To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [opendtv] Re: News: DIGITAL TV OPENS UP TWO-WAY OPPORTUNITIES I'm almost willing to make a bet that it will be common for cable systems to do this: they fight over every bit. They take out 20%-50% of the video content, (and fight for the right to do so) and still call it HDTV. The less it makes sense, the more they are likely to do it. Why, oh, why, despite FCC rules, do they strip out PSIP? So their users can use lower-quality, lower-utility, hard to use cable EPGs. John Willkie -----Mensaje original----- De: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] En nombre de Adam Goldberg Enviado el: Monday, March 03, 2008 2:10 PM Para: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Asunto: [opendtv] Re: News: DIGITAL TV OPENS UP TWO-WAY OPPORTUNITIES > The AFD or pan-scan/bar data mechanism can support carrying the data through > to TV sets; AFD is more robust in that regard, but at this moment, cable > isn't required to pass on AFD, if present. (That should change shortly.) Cable may not be required to, but in order to remove it they'd have to edit the picture user data on-the-fly. IMHO, they're unlikely to do that. -----Original Message----- From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John Willkie Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 3:38 PM To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [opendtv] Re: News: DIGITAL TV OPENS UP TWO-WAY OPPORTUNITIES Facility: You can pass (I don't know at this moment if it's a published standard, cd or fcd at SMPTE) for this type of encoding. I can't remember if it's in the VANC or HANC (I think it might be in both.) I am speaking of a standard, not a vendor-specific solution. BXF (SMPTE 2021, a full committee draft at this moment) supports the functionality Martin mentioned. (I'm not sure that it goes all the way back to sales, but it certainly can.) This article in the most recent issue of BE covers BXF and PMCP. http://broadcastengineering.com/storage_networking/building_better_epgs_801/ index.html Transmission The AFD or pan-scan/bar data mechanism can support carrying the data through to TV sets; AFD is more robust in that regard, but at this moment, cable isn't required to pass on AFD, if present. (That should change shortly.) John Willkie -----Mensaje original----- De: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] En nombre de John Shutt Enviado el: Monday, March 03, 2008 12:25 PM Para: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Asunto: [opendtv] Re: News: DIGITAL TV OPENS UP TWO-WAY OPPORTUNITIES ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Willkie" <johnwillkie@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > The problem is in marking the materials to be shown in the "run list" or > automation process and inserting the data into the video stream. Can you > carry the input of this data all the way back to the beginning of the > ingest > process or even sales? John, My point exactly, and I'm glad to see the industry also agrees with me. What I said is that there is no standard way of identifying material as anamorphic 16:9 or 4:3. Come up with a SMPTE standard to pass along AFD within the VANC data of SD-SDI, do so in a way that any company's cross converter can understand and automatically follow, and then we can start mixing and matching formats within the server. As things stand right now, it is up to a traffic database to keep track of such things, and a station automation system to change modes on a cross converter. Too dicey and too limited in usefulness. There needs to be a standard that hard encodes the AFD into the video that survives any and all processing in the production and distribution chain from initial acquition to final home viewing, just as closed captioning and V-chip information remains preserved. It can even live inside the CC/V-Chip data area to make sure it will survive all processing. But there has to be an agreed upon standard first. Right now there is no standard, just a bunch of different proposals or specialized solutions. John ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can UNSUBSCRIBE from the OpenDTV list in two ways: - Using the UNSUBSCRIBE command in your user configuration settings at FreeLists.org - By sending a message to: opendtv-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can UNSUBSCRIBE from the OpenDTV list in two ways: - Using the UNSUBSCRIBE command in your user configuration settings at FreeLists.org - By sending a message to: opendtv-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can UNSUBSCRIBE from the OpenDTV list in two ways: - Using the UNSUBSCRIBE command in your user configuration settings at FreeLists.org - By sending a message to: opendtv-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can UNSUBSCRIBE from the OpenDTV list in two ways: - Using the UNSUBSCRIBE command in your user configuration settings at FreeLists.org - By sending a message to: opendtv-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can UNSUBSCRIBE from the OpenDTV list in two ways: - Using the UNSUBSCRIBE command in your user configuration settings at FreeLists.org - By sending a message to: opendtv-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can UNSUBSCRIBE from the OpenDTV list in two ways: - Using the UNSUBSCRIBE command in your user configuration settings at FreeLists.org - By sending a message to: opendtv-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can UNSUBSCRIBE from the OpenDTV list in two ways: - Using the UNSUBSCRIBE command in your user configuration settings at FreeLists.org - By sending a message to: opendtv-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can UNSUBSCRIBE from the OpenDTV list in two ways: - Using the UNSUBSCRIBE command in your user configuration settings at FreeLists.org - By sending a message to: opendtv-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can UNSUBSCRIBE from the OpenDTV list in two ways: - Using the UNSUBSCRIBE command in your user configuration settings at FreeLists.org - By sending a message to: opendtv-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.