[lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe
- From: "Lawrence Helm" <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 18:38:32 -0800
You are being ingenuous. My statement may not have been said in the same
way but so what. Most Christians are opposed to pacifism therefore, Usula's
assertion that my views, namely that most Christians are not pacifism, is a
"flight of fancy." Has the incredible fact that most Christians share my
point of view to contend with. I have no intention of following you off on
a rabbit trail. My statement was correct and yours was not -- unless you do
as you want to do and redefine it in such a way that you are correct, but
then it has nothing to do with what I was talking about and you were
disagreeing with.
This is silly, so I'm going to go do something else.
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Phil Enns
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 3:47 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The de-islamization of Europe
Lawrence Helm wrote:
"I made the statement that a majority of Christians (including Catholics)
opposed pacifism. You disagreed with me. Your proof is that a majority of
Catholics cannot be opposed to pacifism because their leaders have ordered
them not to be."
This is a disingenuous account. First you claimed that the majority of
Christians opposed pacifism. I thought that this was not accurate, given my
knowledge of Christianity in areas of the world like S. America and Africa.
You then responded that Catholics were not pacifists. Phrased in this way,
the issue is not whether the majority of Catholics are pacifists, but rather
the Catholic position on pacifism. I disagreed, noting the position taught
by the U.S. Catholic bishops. Because you do not understand Catholicism,
you suggested that the Catholic position was a matter of determining what
the majority of Catholics believe. Catholics have a magisterium and their
teaching is virtually that of pacifism. I have no proof what the majority
of Christians believe, nor do I have proof what the majority of Catholics
believe. I do have proof regarding the official teaching of the Catholic
church. You ignored this point.
Lawrence continues:
"I'm trying to stick to the point here, Phil, not branch out into other
considerations."
No, you are wiggling away from your point. Your initial claim was that
pacifists are a tiny minority and their position is 'ambivalent'. I have
shown that the Catholic position, authoritative for a sizeable percentage of
the total number of Christians, is one of virtual pacifism. I have also
tried to show that this teaching is coherent and consistent. You preferred
to ignore that as well. By coincidence, I am working on a paper for a
conference on the topic of John Howard Yoder, pacifism, and it's place in
the public sphere. Yoder was an ethicist at Notre Dame whose writings have
been enormously influential for contemporary Christian pacifists.
Lawrence concludes:
"I will grant that more Christians are told by their leaders to be
pacifistic than are actually pacifistic. There, can we move on?"
As I have implied several times, what the majority of Christians believe is
irrelevant for the discussion concerning what Christians ought to believe.
A suggestion if you want to 'move on': Don't tell me what I, as a pacifist,
believe. This is a good principle for any conversation but one has to begin
somewhere.
Sincerely,
Phil Enns
Glen Haven, NS
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