[lit-ideas] Re: Relapsed Already
- From: "Lawrence Helm" <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 08:40:05 -0700
You mistake what I said. I said that the Leftists complaining haven't lost
any rights. I didn't say that suspected terrorists hadn't lost any. What
rights have you lost Andreas? I asked Irene that question after she
described the US as a near-Gulag and she didn't answer. And as to the
suspected terrorists losing rights, that sort of thing happens in every war.
The government's highest priority is to protect its citizens not to
guarantee rights to suspected terrorists. You apparently join Mike in not
worrying so much about the Religious fanatics wanting to kill you -- or is
it just that your party-line says push the rights of suspected terrorists
this week. Bush in a speech last week said a program was in the works for
releasing all the prisoners that could be released. Isn't that fast enough
for you? Or do you and Mike just want to get as much mileage as possible
out of this while they're still locked up.
You guys are so considerate of our enemies. One would think that St.
Francis had been cloned. Except, one notices, you aren't very considerate
of those who disagree with you; so if we got a real live Islamist fanatic
and rubbed him in your face, I wonder how you would do.
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Andreas Ramos
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 8:18 AM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Relapsed Already
Amazing how Lawrence can totally ignore reality. Even the military says that
as much as 90%
of those 14,000 people are innocent, who are held in secret US prisons where
they are
tortured and many have died.
Lawrence is so committed to his ideas that plain facts mean nothing to him.
Arguments,
logic, history, facts, none of these matter to him.
yrs,
andreas
www.andreas.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Helm" <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 5:10 AM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Relapsed Already
> Amazing how so many Leftists can get so worked up about rights they aren't
> losing and not be worried about Religious fanatics who have sworn to kill
> them.
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Mike Geary
> Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 1:44 AM
> To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [lit-ideas] Relapsed Already
>
>
>
>
>
> Amazing how some of us can be so worked up about "Islamists" and so
blythely
> unconcerned about the Stasification of America.
>
>
>
>
>
>>From today's NY Times.
>
>
>
> BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) -- In the few short years since the first shackled
Afghan
> shuffled off to Guantanamo, the U.S. military has created a global network
> of overseas prisons, its islands of high security keeping 14,000 detainees
> beyond the reach of established law.
>
> Disclosures of torture and long-term arbitrary detentions have won rebuke
> from leading voices including the
>
<http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/u/united_
> nations/index.html?inline=nyt-org> U.N. secretary-general and the
>
<http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/s/supreme
> _court/index.html?inline=nyt-org> U.S. Supreme Court. But the bitterest
> words come from inside the system, the size of several major U.S.
> penitentiaries....
>
> Many say they were caught up in U.S. military sweeps, often interrogated
> around the clock, then released months or years later without apology,
> compensation or any word on why they were taken. Seventy to 90 percent of
> the Iraq detentions in 2003 were ''mistakes,'' U.S. officers once told the
> international Red Cross.
>
> Defenders of the system, which has only grown since soldiers' photos of
> abuse at Abu Ghraib shocked the world, say it's an unfortunate necessity
in
> the battles to pacify Iraq and Afghanistan, and to keep suspected
terrorists
> out of action.
>
> Every U.S. detainee in Iraq ''is detained because he poses a security
threat
> to the government of Iraq, the people of Iraq or coalition forces,'' said
> U.S. Army Lt. Col. Keir-Kevin Curry, a spokesman for U.S.-led military
> detainee operations in Iraq....
>
> Human rights groups count dozens of detainee deaths for which no one has
> been punished or that were never explained. The secret prisons -- unknown
in
> number and location -- remain available for future detainees. The new
manual
> banning torture doesn't cover CIA interrogators. And thousands of people
> still languish in a limbo, deprived of one of common law's oldest rights,
> habeas corpus, the right to know why you are imprisoned.
>
> ''If you, God forbid, are an innocent Afghan who gets sold down the river
by
> some warlord rival, you can end up at Bagram and you have absolutely no
way
> of clearing your name,'' said John Sifton of
>
<http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/h/human_r
> ights_watch/index.html?inline=nyt-org> Human Rights Watch in New York.
''You
> can't have a lawyer present evidence, or do anything organized to get
> yourself out of there.''
>
> The U.S. government has contended it can hold detainees until the ''war on
> terror'' ends -- as it determines....
>
> Last month they [the U. S. Army] opened a $60-million, state-of-the-art
> detention center at Camp Cropper, near Baghdad's airport. The Army
oversees
> about 13,000 prisoners in Iraq at Cropper, Camp Bucca in the southern
> desert, and Fort Suse in the Kurdish north.
>
> Neither prisoners of war nor criminal defendants, they are just ''security
> detainees'' held ''for imperative reasons of security,'' spokesman Curry
> said, using language from an annex to a
>
<http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/s/securit
> y_council/index.html?inline=nyt-org> U.N. Security Council resolution
> authorizing the U.S. presence here.
>
>
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-In-American-Hands.html?pagewanted=3
>
<http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-In-American-Hands.html?pagewanted=
> 3&_r=1> &_r=1
>
>
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