gene you pointed out that the m s compiler for basic had a flaw, a flaw that you had to work around because fixing it would have required to much money on the part of m s. since as we know m s acknowledge this flaw doesn't f s owe us the same with respect to jfw if it also has similar bugs. not just acknowledge bugs that are to expensive to fix but also be honest on all known bugs that have been reported by users and acknowledge by f s. the policy of being truthful and upfront could also be extended to letting end users no about video card issues. lets not forget the new copy protection scheme, to my knowledge f s gives the end user very little info as to what hardware changes may or may not effect the authorization scheme f s uses. bottom line is this their lack of info to explain their position does them more harm than good. the other point you maid clear is that working with the end user in a public beta is a harrassing task for the software developer. i totally agree, thats why many companies like m s use an error reporting tool to accomplish this. the error reporting information is often superior to the info the average end user can put forth. an error reporting tool and a public beta make a great combination for detecting bugs and fixing them. thus reducing the extra strain on the software developer because they are using less experience computer users in a public beta. the software developer does not have to rely totaly on the feedback of the end user. so their is a method of doing public betas in a effective manor. bill -- To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line. Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx