john hate totell you this the public betas that f s had where not really much of a public beta in the first place. sure they released it and after the release they fixed some of the known bugs, but fixed very few bugs if any reported on the e mail list by end users. in fact when they had several patches, not uncommon, the next patch reported bug list did not even mention the bugs found on the list. guess what f s from appearance was never listening much to its user base from what i can see. at least not the users on the list. if they had been the bugs discoverred by the list would have been in the bug list of the following patch. of course what does one expect of a 2 week public beta. about what f s deliverred. some of g w public betas have been over 2 months by comparison. gene your comment about 6.1 being about the same, well isn't the idea behind a .1 patch supposed to be fixes. so when it appears and no fixes are their what do you think folks are going to say, that 6.1 is lovely and improved when its not. no their going to tell the truth, no fixes and a disappointment because it lacks fixes. john you noted that those bitching seem to be some of the same folks. well here is a further note, many of those bitching happen to own both screen readers. or at least some of us do. including me. know severals do because seem some of them on the other list, and some noted it here. so after seeing how g w micro attacks bugs in its public beta and does a much better job one has to ask how a company with about one third the programmers can do what f s can not. g w only has 2 programmers. f s has soldover 100,000 copies of jfw and has much more revenue to fix bugs than the competition. unfortunately their not doing as good as the competition with fixing bugs, so because we who own the competition see that a better job can be done, so we point it out. so i know that its simply not true these issues can not be addressed because windows is so complicated. true not all bugs will be solved in any piece of software, but i know of no other company that introduces patches that fix nothing or very little as recent versions of jfw patches have. bill -- To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line. Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx