Dear Philip, One of the things I have noticed about R.C's is that they seem to have no discernment, no evidence that they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and thus incapable of understanding what the scriptures are saying. I think the reason for that is that they are told what to believe by a manipulating and unscrupulous clergy. History records this in great detail. 1 Cor 2:12-14 applies to each and every one of us personally (His Church) not just to a select clergy for dishing out to its devotees. However the Reformed Christian church understands who the Holy Spirit is and what His purpose is, this then allows those of us who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to read the Bible and with discernment and understand what it is saying - its plain meaning. However I am quick to point out that I do not include ALL Reformed Christians, it usually quite obvious who they are. Agrred that there are a few difficult passages but not enough to make the Bible incomprehensible. Now I know you will accuse me of 'private interpretation' because the R.C. church tells you that is what I'm doing. There are some people who perform some of the most tortuous interpretations that completely change the plain meaning and the R.C. church is certainly one of these. Quite clearly the Mat 25 verses are refering to those who profess a belief in God but without showing any kind of fruit. No protestant believes that faith all by itself gives them a ticket to heaven, it must be accompanied by works as well. If you think about it, it is not possible to have true faith in God without the works to go with it. James 2 says that Faith without works is dead so also is works without faith, There are many good people out there who do great works of charity but will never see the Kingdom of God. However salvation is not solely dependant upon works as the works shall be tested by fire as described in 1Cor 3:8-15. What kind of loss will be suffered by someone even though they still have their salvation? The loss will be a heavenly loss meaning that his reward will not be as great as one whose works survive detailed scrutiny by God. You can get good works, adequet works and poor works and this scripture clearly shows that a Christian can get into Heaven by the skin of his teeth. I once thought that my heavenly reward was simply going to heaven but this scripture, along with others, show that there will be different levels of reward depending on how we conducted our Earthly lives. The scriptures you quoted describe the kind of thing that is expected of us. Regards Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: philip madsen To: geocentrism list Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 12:44 AM Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Malleus Maleficarum A question for everybody. If you were to die in the next 60 seconds, would you go to heaven? I know I would. Jack I have to ask you then Jack, where in the Bible does it gaurrantee you that . Of what need of our call to have hope, if faith is certain. Of what need is there to have charity, if faith is certain. Of what need have you of a Judge, if you can judge yourself? And it is the works that are to be judged, not the faith as well shown in Mat 25 the judgement: 31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry......43 I was a stranger and you took me not in: naked and you covered me not: sick and in prison and you did not visit me. 14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him? 17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead: so also faith without works is dead. We are obliged to say often and always, "Lord have mercy...." Philip.