Re: Itunes

  • From: "Gary Wood" <k8hlx@xxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <blindcasting@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 16:21:46 -0500

Hi Russell! Bryan does a great job with the scripts he produces for folks!
----- Original Message ----- From: "Russell Solowoniuk" <RSOLOWONIUK@xxxxxxx>
To: <blindcasting@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 8:44 AM
Subject: RE: Itunes

Hi all,

I just started using the Itunes program this past weekend. I am using an
Ipod Shuffle I received from Audible. I am trying out the Jaws scripts
written by Brian Hartgen and they work great. It took a bit of doing, but I
was able to set up an account at the Apple store and can now purchase music
tracks and albums from the Itunes Apple Music store without too much
difficulty. I'm also using Itunes for subscribing to and downloading
PodCasts. With Brian's scripts I have access to a large variety of radio
stations which I am able to pick from a list. Itunes makes it extremely easy
to rip tracks from your CD collection and then load them onto the Ipod

I had attempted to use Creative Labs software with a Creative Zen Touch MP3
player and found it a lot more inaccessible than Itunes.

Anyway, that's just my two cents worth.

Take care all,


-----Original Message-----
From: blindcasting-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blindcasting-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Darcy Burnard
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 10:56 AM
To: blindcasting@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Itunes

Hi Chris. For the most part I would agree with you. When choosing between
a product whos producers are interested in accessibility and one who isn't,
I'l take the first one every time. However, there are times where there
aren't any real alternatives and we have to deal with a product which isn't
as usable as we might like. I know personally I would love to be able to
use the itunes music store, and unfortunately that means using the itunes

On Wed, 11 Jan 2006, Chris Skarstad wrote:


This is going to be my last word on this subject, because I think I've
made myself clear as to how I feel. I kind of take issue with Darrel's
comments below, only because as I said before, it, is, all, in, how,
you, go, about, it.
We have to go to these companies and say you know, we would use your
products, but we can't. It's all about the bottom line y'all, and the
bottom line is about loss of revenue.
The thing is we have to proove to them that it would be a significant
loss, and that's where the problems come in. We are clearly a
minority, that much I agree with.  But we should still be granted
access to these products. Having a defeatest attitude, or one that is
too forceful or militant, helps, no, one.
Also as I  said, instead of beating our heads against the walls trying
to work with companies who have no interest in making their products
accessible, let's find companies who offer similar products and
software programs, but who *are* interested in access for everybody.
Itunes ain't the end all be all in music software, folks. To me itunes
is a piece of crap, I was never really all that impressed with it, even
with the scripts.
I sent a note to Red Chair software thanking them for making their
program Anapod  Explorer accessible to me.  I'm sure they were
thankful for the kind words, and it may have opened their eyes, bad
pun i know but it's true, about their user base.  Unlike Apple, some
companies  are interested in making their stuff accessible, so I say,
let's work with them instead. After all, why beat your head against
the wall working with someone who doesn't want to work, when you can
find someone who does and get the same job done and there's less of a
headache? why take the long way around.

At 07:57 PM 1/10/2006, you wrote:
Hi Gary, Steve and all,

We are deemed too insignificant for companies to be even remotely
interested in forming partnerships, etc.  Besides, most of the blind
community is too fragmented and weak to do anything seriously
effective to improve accessibility.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Wood" <k8hlx@xxxxxxxxxxx> To: <blindcasting@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 10:37 AM Subject: Re: Itunes

Hi Steve!  I think I would agree with that!  I think it indeed takes
teamwork!  Maybe we need to work with companies as partners to get
accessibility accomplished.  That may be the only way!  Maybe we
can't get anywhere with companies by just demanding that they follow
through on making things happen for us!
----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Holmes"
To: <blindcasting@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: Itunes

Hash: RIPEMD160

I only make that one point about a case at a time because it may
take so much effort on each person's part.  To get some of these
reforms through might require a person getting inside the
organization or at least a piece of the development action so he or
she can make influinces on the development cycle.

I think our blindness organizations could get a lot more involved
in making policy statements and conveying such positions to product
developers and use its members to help verify compliance to such
policies.  I think the idea of sending reps to shows like the
consumer electronics show in Los Vegas is an excellent one.
Remember Darrell from this list attending the Media Expo in
Onterio, California last fall?  He got a brief audience with Adam
Curry, the Podfather:).  I only hope that meeting results in something
beyond a verbal committment.

On Mon, Jan 09, 2006 at 03:29:36PM -0500, Gary Wood wrote:
Hi Steve!  Well Maybe these should be done on a case by case basis!
----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Holmes"
To: <blindcasting@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: Itunes

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: RIPEMD160 > >Well, it almost has to happen on a case by case process. One >example if I may toot my own horn a bit, is My church is >preparing to roll out a big web based initiative to facilitate >family history research. Like so many new proposed web sites and >web changes, our accessibility is always up for grabs. I pleeded >for and actually got access to their beta program. I have >already suggested improvements to their proposed web form layouts >with more to come for sure and I also already beet up on their >visual verification scheme for user registration. At least I've >done what I could so far; that was all in the past week and I now >await their committments to change. At least my foot is in the >door and I hope these efforts will benefit other blind church >members and eventually the blind public at large who should take >advantage of the new family search service. > >On Sat, Jan 07, 2006 at 01:45:13PM -0700, Darrell Shandrow wrote: >>Hi Gary, >> >>It is always a balancing act. Screen readers allow us access to >>computers. >>These companies must certainly continue doing their part to >>develop and implement technologies that make our technology >>lives more accessible. >>On >>the other hand, mainstream tech companies must also do the right >>thing by meeting us the other halfway, reasonably accomodating >>accessibility needs. >>We must ask and insist on it if necessary, finally using the >>available laws when appropriate as the very last resort. >> >>By and large, at this time, the blind community simply lacks the >>will to get serious about accessibility issues. The consumer >>organizations and others are quite frankly paralyzed to do >>anything significant. So long as that's the case, we're stuck >>and inaccessibility is getting worse for us on practically a >>second by second basis! >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Gary Wood" >><k8hlx@xxxxxxxxxxx> >>To: <blindcasting@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 1:26 PM >>Subject: Re: Itunes >> >> >>>Hi Darrell! I think that as blind people, we should step up to >>>the plate, and get involved to try to solve the accessibility >>>issues; but I don't know if we should ask companies to make >>>their products more accessible to us, or we should get involved >>>with companies to make programs accessible from the ground up; >>>but I don't know how we could do this, but it's some food for >>>thought! >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Darrell Shandrow" <nu7i@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>To: <blindcasting@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 9:41 AM >>>Subject: Re: Itunes >>> >>> >>>>Hi Steve, >>>> >>>>I'm not sure there is much of a "good thing" to be lost with
>>>>Apple has most likely created VoiceOver only to protect their
>>>>education business from loss due to legislation requiring
>>>>accessibility of technology in education.  As far as I can
>>>>tell, the company has done nothing further for us.  I think it
>>>>is time for us to do a few things.
>>>>First, let's start thinking about drafting and sending a
>>>>letter to Steve Jobs asking for Apple to do more to make their
>>>>products and services accessible.  Second, let's start
>>>>participating in the forums over at
>>>> to publicly ask for more
>>>>accessibility and see what we can get for a response from
>>>>Apple and their users.
>>>>Everytime I think about one of the myriad and increasing
>>>>accessibility issues we face with technology, I feel very
>>>>depressed.  Companies by and large could care less whether or
>>>>not we jump in the lake, but the biggest problem lies with the
>>>>blind community, who largely refuse to take any significant
>>>>collective and individual actions to insist on equal
>>>>participation in all that technology already offers the sighted.
>>>>everyone in the companies we need to become more accessible
>>>>simply don't know that blind technology users exist.  Shame on
>>>>us in the blind community for not consistently and frequently
>>>>explaining it to them!
>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: "Steve Holmes"
>>>>To: <blindcasting@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 7:24 AM
>>>>Subject: Re: Itunes
>>>>>Hash: RIPEMD160
>>>>>When I read Anna Dresner's book about her iPod experiences, I
>>>>>got the impression that Apple's tech support was quite
>>>>>helpful and treated her fairly.  Though that was nearly a
>>>>>year ago now.  I hope some of us blind guys didn't go in
>>>>>there like gang busters and ruin a good thing.
>>>>>then again, my impressions of Apple's lack of committment to
>>>>>accessibility for such popular products like the iPod and
>>>>>iTunes, I gues I couldn't blaim some blind folks for ganging
>>>>>up on them.  I personally have heard absolutely *NOTHING*
>>>>>from Apple concerning making iTunes or the iPod any more
>>>>>accessible to blind people and furthermore, I have heard
>>>>>rumors that the shuffle was being discontinued.  If that last
>>>>>rumor is untrue, then I will stand corrected.
>>>>>?As for the set files I wrote for iTunes, it shouldn't matter
>>>>>what version of iTunes is being used.  I haven't checked
>>>>>Brian Hartgen's sets out to see if they are any better than
>>>>>what I have.  I only passed my version to a few folks to see
>>>>>what was thought but mine need a lot of improvement before
>>>>>prime time release.  I just find iTunes to be so inconsistent
>>>>>with graphical displays and the like, I found it impossible
>>>>>to reliably purchase from the store for example.  I developed
>>>>>my sets using Window-Eyes version 5.5 so they probably
>>>>>wouldn't work for any earlier versions of WE but the version
>>>>>of iTunes shouldn't matter.
>>>>>currently using version 6.0 something and my sets still work
>>>>>with such as iTunes is.
>>>>>On Sat, Jan 07, 2006 at 06:31:49AM -0700, BlindTech of
>>>>>>Being a blind mac user myself and a trainer for
>>>>>>mac/osx/tiger/ voiceover/zoom I have to ask one very
>>>>>>important question please......
>>>>>>What was the context in which you asked for help. I mean,
>>>>>>Was it like "Hey dude, I am blind and I can't find xxxxxx on
>>>>>>your site so can you help me?"
>>>>>>If so, I see why, if not. hmmmm.... I got to admit though
>>>>>>that apple has been getting snotty with allot of blind folks
>>>>>>and its not making me to happy because I push for the blind
>>>>>>to convert to the mac and promote the mac all over and it
>>>>>>annoys the hell out of me when I hear these stories because
>>>>>>if one of my clients get this type of treatment it looks bad
>>>>>>on me.
>>>>>>BlindTech of BlindTechs.Net
>>>>>>website: Visit our website where we
>>>>>>offer free email, shell accoiunts, shoutcast radio service,
>>>>>>online games and more!
>>>>>>Powered by Unix not Microsoft
>>>>>>On Jan 7, 2006, at 3:37 AM, Chris Gilland wrote:
>>>>>>>Actually, when I looked at the web site, I didn't see any
>>>>>>>type limitations, but I could be wrong.  I didn't look very
>>>>>>>heavily since I couldn't even find the install shield for
>>>>>>>version 5, as that's gonna be the first thing that will
>>>>>>>have to happen, and frankly, Apple is being quite
>>>>>>>interestingly enough, very very very very very rude in not
>>>>>>>wanting to help.  I called and spoke with someone at the
>>>>>>>Apple Care Tech Support line, and they actually had the
>>>>>>>guts to sit there and say that because I was blind, they
>>>>>>>refused to help me as a customer.  None the less, I'm
>>>>>>>seriously thinking of taking a complaint to my local ACB
>>>>>>>chapter regarding this, as I'm not much for NFB, but I
>>>>>>>don't wish to get into a political discussion here, so
>>>>>>>thus, I really don't feel comfortable giving any reasons
>>>>>>>why that is on list.  Anyway, we'll get off that subject...
>>>>>>>Yeah, I didn't see any limitations though, but I'll check
>>>>>>>later on today a bit more closely.
>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "BlindTech of
>>>>>>>To: <blindcasting@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 11:31 PM
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: Itunes
>>>>>>>I'm assuming that the set files are coded in a way to where
>>>>>>>won't work with a demo of win eyes?
>>>>>>>BlindTech of BlindTechs.Net
>>>>>>>Visit our website where we offer free email, shell accoiunts,
>>>>>>>shoutcast radio service, online games and more!
>>>>>>>Powered by Unix not Microsoft
>>>>>>>On Jan 6, 2006, at 3:55 PM, Chris Gilland wrote:
>>>>>>>>I have an IPod mini.  I?m wondering if anyone may know where
>>>>>>>>get a coy of Itunes version 5, as apparently, the set files
>>>>>>>>window eyes do not work with any other version. I?ve >>>>>>>>checked

>>>>>>>>Apple  web site, and also have looked on and
>>>>>>>>  I?ve used google as well, with no luck.  I
>>>>>>>>would like to try these set files with my demo copy of Window
>>>>>>>>eyes.  Please let me know if anyone has any ideas.
>>>>>- -- >>>>>HolmesGrown Solutions
>>>>>The best solutions for the best price!
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>- -- >HolmesGrown Solutions
>The best solutions for the best price!
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