Re: Itunes

  • From: "BlindTech of BlindTechs.Net" <blindtech@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: blindcasting@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 07:10:54 -0700

I've been on the apple line of products since about 92 even earlier, on the 2e, 2gs then on to a lc580 to a 5400, 430, 410 to a 6400 to a imac (remember those back in 99?) and mastered windows in and out,

I just know possitively that the mac is going to be the way for us to go when vista comes out.
I've used outspoken 1.7.5, 8.0, 9.0 and now use tiger voiceover. Let me know when your ready to inverview maybe a congference of some sort with skype. (btw, I use that on a mac too!)
btw, I'm actually presenting the mac on saturday, at the AZCB meeting I'm going to forward the announcement here in a second.

BlindTech of BlindTechs.Net
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On Jan 11, 2006, at 6:23 AM, Darrell Shandrow wrote:


All I really expect is that companies will respond affirmatively to accessibility requests and try to follow any established standards or otherwise take steps to work with us to become more accessible. All I really care about is that things are "reasonably" usable. My specific expectations of people and companies are actually quite low. Something a bit more significant than a total brush off would be nice for sure.

Though I know nothing about the Mac, I am willing to do an interview. There are others beside Jeff and I who actually do have Macintosh experience.
----- Original Message ----- From: "BlindTech of BlindTechs.Net" <blindtech@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <blindcasting@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 6:11 AM
Subject: Re: Itunes

but the problem with accessable content and/oor itmes is "What is accessibility"?

what might be accessable to jaws, might not be accessable to window eyes, howl, voiceover (tiger 10.4 mac os) etc. there fore can a group of blind people just say:
"Oh, well iits accessable for us jaws uers so its accessable, you should use jaws" is this a right situation to be in?
and hey darrel you in town yet. still want to deo the interview with you about the mac. and jeff if you see this contact me also in regards to the same please.

my number is (602) 488-9862 (yes, yes, yes before everyone starts gasping with the world, I gave out my number on the list.) big deal.

BlindTech of BlindTechs.Net
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On Jan 11, 2006, at 5:32 AM, Darrell Shandrow wrote:

Hi Gary and all,

It has been my experience thus far that the "blind community" lacks the will necessary to get much of anything productive done, either from a collective or individual standpoint. So long as there are only a few individuals out there really pounding the pavement asking for or insisting upon accessibility, we will go absolutely nowhere. Since there is no economic justification for accessibility (we represent a market that is too small) it is a waste of time to advocate. We must just simply stop complaining about our 75 percent unemployment rate, accept our situation and do the best we can. 75 percent now? Get ready for 0 employment in the not too distant future. Combined with the reduction in social welfare programs and the future is very grim indeed.

Seriously... The issues for the blind are ultimately twofold: accessibility and alternative, safe transportation. The blind community does not have the brass to get serious about these items, so we're stuck.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Wood" <k8hlx@xxxxxxxxxxx> To: <blindcasting@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 12:39 AM Subject: Re: Itunes

Well maybe the blind community has to come together to get something like this accomplished. Maybe that's wishful thinking!
----- Original Message ----- From: "Darrell Shandrow" <nu7i@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <blindcasting@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 8:57 PM
Subject: Re: Itunes

Hi Gary, Steve and all,

We are deemed too insignificant for companies to be even remotely interested in forming partnerships, etc. Besides, most of the blind community is too fragmented and weak to do anything seriously effective to improve accessibility.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Wood" <k8hlx@xxxxxxxxxxx> To: <blindcasting@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 10:37 AM Subject: Re: Itunes

Hi Steve! I think I would agree with that! I think it indeed takes teamwork! Maybe we need to work with companies as partners to get accessibility accomplished. That may be the only way! Maybe we can't get anywhere with companies by just demanding that they follow through on making things happen for us!
----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Holmes" <steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <blindcasting@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: Itunes

Hash: RIPEMD160

I only make that one point about a case at a time because it may take so
much effort on each person's part. To get some of these reforms through
might require a person getting inside the organization or at least a
piece of the development action so he or she can make influinces on the
development cycle.

I think our blindness organizations could get a lot more involved in
making policy statements and conveying such positions to product
developers and use its members to help verify compliance to such
policies. I think the idea of sending reps to shows like the consumer
electronics show in Los Vegas is an excellent one. Remember Darrell from
this list attending the Media Expo in Onterio, California last fall? He
got a brief audience with Adam Curry, the Podfather:). I only hope that
meeting results in something beyond a verbal committment.

On Mon, Jan 09, 2006 at 03:29:36PM -0500, Gary Wood wrote:
Hi Steve! Well Maybe these should be done on a case by case basis!
----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Holmes" <steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <blindcasting@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: Itunes

>Hash: RIPEMD160
>Well, it almost has to happen on a case by case process. One
example >if
>I may toot my own horn a bit, is My church is preparing to
roll out a
>big web based initiative to facilitate family history
research. Like >so
>many new proposed web sites and web changes, our
accessibility is >always
>up for grabs. I pleeded for and actually got access to their
>program. I have already suggested improvements to their
proposed web
>form layouts with more to come for sure and I also already
beet up on
>their visual verification scheme for user registration. At
least >I've
>done what I could so far; that was all in the past week and I
now >await
>their committments to change. At least my foot is in the
door and I
>hope these efforts will benefit other blind church members and
>eventually the blind public at large who should take
advantage of the
>new family search service.
>On Sat, Jan 07, 2006 at 01:45:13PM -0700, Darrell Shandrow
>>Hi Gary,
>>It is always a balancing act. Screen readers allow us
access to
>>These companies must certainly continue doing their part to
develop >>and
>>implement technologies that make our technology lives more >>accessible.
>>the other hand, mainstream tech companies must also do the
right >>thing by
>>meeting us the other halfway, reasonably accomodating
>>We must ask and insist on it if necessary, finally using the >>available
>>when appropriate as the very last resort.
>>By and large, at this time, the blind community simply lacks
the >>will to
>>get serious about accessibility issues. The consumer
organizations >>and
>>others are quite frankly paralyzed to do anything
significant. So >>long
>>that's the case, we're stuck and inaccessibility is getting
worse >>for us
>>practically a second by second basis!
>>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Gary Wood"
>>To: <blindcasting@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 1:26 PM
>>Subject: Re: Itunes
>>>Hi Darrell! I think that as blind people, we should step
up to the
>>>and get involved to try to solve the accessibility issues;
but I >>>don't
>>>know if we should ask companies to make their products more >>>accessible
>>>us, or we should get involved with companies to make
programs >>>accessible
>>>from the ground up; but I don't know how we could do this,
but it's >>>some
>>>food for thought!
>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Darrell Shandrow"
>>>To: <blindcasting@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 9:41 AM
>>>Subject: Re: Itunes
>>>>Hi Steve,
>>>>I'm not sure there is much of a "good thing" to be lost
with >>>>Apple.
>>>>Apple has most likely created VoiceOver only to protect
their >>>>education
>>>>business from loss due to legislation requiring
accessibility of
>>>>technology in education. As far as I can tell, the
company has >>>>done
>>>>nothing further for us. I think it is time for us to do a
few >>>>things.
>>>>First, let's start thinking about drafting and sending a
letter to
>>>>Jobs asking for Apple to do more to make their products
and >>>>services
>>>>accessible. Second, let's start participating in the
forums over >>>>at
>>>> to publicly ask for more >>>>accessibility and
>>>>see what we can get for a response from Apple and their
>>>>Everytime I think about one of the myriad and increasing >>>>accessibility
>>>>issues we face with technology, I feel very depressed.
Companies >>>>by
>>>>large could care less whether or not we jump in the lake,
but the
>>>>problem lies with the blind community, who largely refuse
to take >>>>any
>>>>significant collective and individual actions to insist on
>>>>participation in all that technology already offers the
>>>>everyone in the companies we need to become more
accessible simply
>>>>know that blind technology users exist. Shame on us in
the blind
>>>>community for not consistently and frequently explaining
it to >>>>them!
>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: "Steve Holmes"
>>>>To: <blindcasting@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 7:24 AM
>>>>Subject: Re: Itunes
>>>>>Hash: RIPEMD160
>>>>>When I read Anna Dresner's book about her iPod
experiences, I got >>>>>the
>>>>>impression that Apple's tech support was quite helpful
and >>>>>treated her
>>>>>fairly. Though that was nearly a year ago now. I hope
some of >>>>>us
>>>>>guys didn't go in there like gang busters and ruin a good
thing. >>>>>But
>>>>>then again, my impressions of Apple's lack of committment to
>>>>>accessibility for such popular products like the iPod and
iTunes, >>>>>I
>>>>>I couldn't blaim some blind folks for ganging up on them. I
>>>>>have heard absolutely *NOTHING* from Apple concerning
making >>>>>iTunes or
>>>>>the iPod any more accessible to blind people and
furthermore, I >>>>>have
>>>>>heard rumors that the shuffle was being discontinued. If
that >>>>>last
>>>>>rumor is untrue, then I will stand corrected.
>>>>>?As for the set files I wrote for iTunes, it shouldn't
matter >>>>>what
>>>>>version of iTunes is being used. I haven't checked Brian >>>>>Hartgen's
>>>>>out to see if they are any better than what I have. I
only >>>>>passed my
>>>>>version to a few folks to see what was thought but mine
need a >>>>>lot of
>>>>>improvement before prime time release. I just find
iTunes to be >>>>>so
>>>>>inconsistent with graphical displays and the like, I
found it
>>>>>to reliably purchase from the store for example. I
developed my >>>>>sets
>>>>>using Window-Eyes version 5.5 so they probably wouldn't
work for >>>>>any
>>>>>earlier versions of WE but the version of iTunes
shouldn't >>>>>matter.
>>>>>currently using version 6.0 something and my sets still
work with >>>>>such
>>>>>as iTunes is.
>>>>>On Sat, Jan 07, 2006 at 06:31:49AM -0700, BlindTech of >>>>>BlindTechs.Net
>>>>>>Being a blind mac user myself and a trainer for mac/osx/
>>>>>>voiceover/zoom I have to ask one very important question >>>>>>please......
>>>>>>What was the context in which you asked for help. I
mean, Was it >>>>>>like
>>>>>>"Hey dude, I am blind and I can't find xxxxxx on your
site so >>>>>>can you
>>>>>>help me?"
>>>>>>If so, I see why, if not. hmmmm.... I got to admit
though that >>>>>>apple
>>>>>>has been getting snotty with allot of blind folks and
its not >>>>>>making
>>>>>>me to happy because I push for the blind to convert to
the mac >>>>>>and
>>>>>>promote the mac all over and it annoys the hell out of
me when I >>>>>>hear
>>>>>>these stories because if one of my clients get this type
of >>>>>>treatment
>>>>>>it looks bad on me.
>>>>>>BlindTech of BlindTechs.Net
>>>>>>Visit our website where we offer free email, shell
>>>>>>shoutcast radio service, online games and more!
>>>>>>Powered by Unix not Microsoft
>>>>>>On Jan 7, 2006, at 3:37 AM, Chris Gilland wrote:
>>>>>>>Actually, when I looked at the web site, I didn't see
any type
>>>>>>>limitations, but I could be wrong. I didn't look very
>>>>>>>since I couldn't even find the install shield for
version 5, as
>>>>>>>that's gonna be the first thing that will have to
happen, and
>>>>>>>frankly, Apple is being quite interestingly enough,
very very >>>>>>>very
>>>>>>>very very rude in not wanting to help. I called and
spoke with
>>>>>>>someone at the Apple Care Tech Support line, and they
actually >>>>>>>had
>>>>>>>the guts to sit there and say that because I was blind,
>>>>>>>refused to help me as a customer. None the less, I'm
>>>>>>>thinking of taking a complaint to my local ACB chapter >>>>>>>regarding
>>>>>>>this, as I'm not much for NFB, but I don't wish to get
into a
>>>>>>>political discussion here, so thus, I really don't feel >>>>>>>comfortable
>>>>>>>giving any reasons why that is on list. Anyway, we'll
get off >>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>subject... Yeah, I didn't see any limitations though,
but I'll
>>>>>>>check later on today a bit more closely.
>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "BlindTech of >>>>>>>BlindTechs.Net"
>>>>>>>To: <blindcasting@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 11:31 PM
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: Itunes
>>>>>>>I'm assuming that the set files are coded in a way to
where >>>>>>>they
>>>>>>>won't work with a demo of win eyes?
>>>>>>>BlindTech of BlindTechs.Net
>>>>>>>Visit our website where we offer free email, shell
>>>>>>>shoutcast radio service, online games and more!
>>>>>>>Powered by Unix not Microsoft
>>>>>>>On Jan 6, 2006, at 3:55 PM, Chris Gilland wrote:
>>>>>>>>I have an IPod mini. I?m wondering if anyone may know
where >>>>>>>>to
>>>>>>>>get a coy of Itunes version 5, as apparently, the set
files >>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>>window eyes do not work with any other version. I?ve
checked >>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>Apple web site, and also have looked on and
>>>>>>>> I?ve used google as well, with no
luck. I >>>>>>>>really
>>>>>>>>would like to try these set files with my demo copy of
>>>>>>>>eyes. Please let me know if anyone has any ideas.
>>>>>- -- >>>>>HolmesGrown Solutions
>>>>>The best solutions for the best price!
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>- -- >HolmesGrown Solutions
>The best solutions for the best price!
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