As a matter of fact, a few years ago Joe Biden showed up in Charleston
for a rally. I think he was campaigning for Barack. I did not attend
myself, but even the excerpt I heard on the local news let me know it
was the same old thing and he was going on and on about middle class
this and middle class that. Then I had a conversation with a couple of
people who did attend. I think their main interest was just to see a
very famous person in person. They were both of the opinion that Biden
had nothing to offer them. They said that he doesn't care about us. All
he cares about is those middle class people. Frankly, except for all the
Democrat operatives who were present I expect that is how most of the
people there reacted to him. He was talking to a crowd that did not
identify as middle class.
---
Voltaire
“ Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities. ”
― Voltaire,
On 7/26/2019 9:58 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
That is the economic definition of class and it's true, as far as it goes. But
of course, as you say, our world is complex. It's divided in a lot of ways, one
of them being regional like The Mid East, Asia, Africa, The West, and there's
Eastern Europe and Western Europe, and all of those are divided into nation
states, and we have societies, each with a culture which differentiates how its
people live and what they believe, from other societies. And within our own
country, there are vast differences from region to region. People who live in
our coastal cities tend to have different lifestyles than those who live in the
middle of the country. People in the Northeast are different from those in the
South East. People who live on the West coast tend to have habits that are
different from people on the east coast. And when we talk about class, there's
economic class and there's social class and these are usually the same, but not
always, and how they are manifested, will differ from place to place. So one
can make a political point by providing a simplified picture and that picture
will be accurate, as far as it goes. And then there's the complicating factor
which is that when politicians talk, they actually do talk as if everyone were
a member of the economic middle class. They seldom use the term, working class
because they think that the term is an insult. And they never talk, in their
speeches, to the poor or the unemployed. And that practice causes everyone to
feel that, of course, they must be middle class.
My parents had a group of friends with whom they socialized every month for
decades. They met when they were young and all working and living in New York
City. All of them were Jewish and all of them had parents who had emigrated
here from Europe in the early 1900's. Over the years, the circumstances of most
of the couples changed. Some of the men attended college. One became a school
teacher. One became an optometrist. A third became an accountant. I don't know
what the fourth one did for a living, but my father remained a factory worker.
All of the couples except for my parents and one other couple, moved to the
suburbs. Eventually, the accountant moved from the first suburb to a very
affluent suburb in Westchester County where he owned a colonial style home on
an acre property. The monthly gatherings moved from one couple's house to
another's. The gatherings were warm and friendly. No one thought or talked
about social class and no one resented the more financially successful group
members. Interestingly, my daughter and son-in-law have a somewhat similar
social situation. I don't know much about the couples with whom they socialize,
but I do know that many of the men grew up together in Levittown which is a
blue collar, working class Long Island suburb. My son-in-law is probably the
most financially successful of the group. He is a partner in a business. My
daughter is an attorney, employed by a law firm. I do know that one couple who
are their friends, consists of the husband who is a butcher, and the wife who
is an aide in a school. I suspect that the more recently formed social groups
are more financially homogenous.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Friday, July 26, 2019 8:43 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: This sounds like Mostafa.
In the beehive, there is the Queen. She exists for one single purpose, to
populate the bee colony. The rest of the bees break into two groups. The
smaller group are the Drones, whose job is to spend their lives having sex with
the queen. This is a tempting place to find oneself, except when sex is over,
the Drone is murdered and tossed out of the hive.
The final class of bees is by far the largest. The Workers. Their sole
purpose in life is to tend to feeding the little baby bees; and to protect the
queen; and to fan the air to cool the bee hive; to run off intruders who are
bent on eating the sweet syrup that nourishes the baby bees; and finally, to
clean all debris from the hive.
So the vast majority of bees are in the Working Class. They all have different
tasks, but all are directed toward serving the Queen.
In a much more complex world, we humans mimic the bees. We workers are divided into many sub
groups, with many tasks, all directed toward serving the needs of our Ruling Class. Instead of one
Queen Bee, our focal point is divided into sub Ruling Class groups. We serve, expecting to be
taken care of. But with so many "Queen Bees", we often find ourselves working at odds
with one another. And just to add another layer of confusion, our "Queen" also includes
a bunch of Drones. In our human model, the Drones are not murdered and tossed out of the Hive, as
they should be. Instead they slink about, always on the take, contributing nothing except to make
trouble for the rest of us(see, Donald Trump).
Whether I build weapons to defend my Hive, or empty bed pans, I am serving my
human version of the Queen Bee. I can either like it, or I can join a small
group who are nurturing a new Queen, whom we plan to sneak off to start our own
Colony.
Finally, in our own complex, confused world, we have no more freedom of choice
than do our friendly little honey bees. We are all rushing about trying to
serve our Queen.
Carl Jarvis
the social group consisting of people who are employed for wages, especially in
manual or industrial work.
On 7/26/19, Frank Ventura <frank.ventura@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Roger, I too take issue with "middle class". It implies a certain
class that is supposed to be somewhere in the middle of the absolute
poor and the ruling class. The implication usually implies to the
working class. If there was truth to that moniker folks like us would
have wealth about half of that of the ruling class. Obviously that is
far from the truth and our actual wealth is much closer to the absolute poor
than it is to the working class.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Roger Loran Bailey
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2019 10:14 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: This sounds like Mostafa.
I am a Marxist, but that remark in there about the phrase middle class
is an example of exactly what I am talking about. Just what does my
distaste for the phrase middle class have to do with Marxism? Once
before, after I had explained over and over why I have a distaste for
that phrase, you said that you thought it was because it was not one
of the classes that Marx had delineated. I never have figured out why
you thought that after I had explained the real reasons I don't like
it so many times. And that is why I get so frustrated. I explain and
explain a concept over and over and you just don't get it and you just
did it in this very message. As for Mostafa, this is something else I
have explained over and over. If Mostafa would just express himself then he
could just express himself. But he doesn't do that.
He is a relentless bully who insists on forcing his nonsense on
people. I am giving him back what he gives and I do notice that he is
one of those people who can dish it out, but can't take it.
---
Voltaire
“ Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit
atrocities. ”
― Voltaire,
On 7/23/2019 3:39 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Roger,
Am I mistaken in thinking that you are a socialist and that most of
the nonfiction material that you read is influenced by Marxist
theory? Haven't you criticized people who call themselves socialist
when they do not adhere to classical socialism? Do you not write
disparagingly of anyone whose opinions seem to you to be Liberal or
bourgeois? Do you not disparage the use of the term, middle class,
and accuse those who define themselves as such of being snobs? Do you
not sneer at Democratic Socialists because they aren't in favor of
what you consider to be real socialism? Having seen all of these
themes in your posts for a good number of years, I have come to the
conclusion that you are a Marxist Socialist, whatever that actually
is. You have very fixed ideas about socialism and you continually try
to indoctrinate people with those ideas when you complain that some
of us are refusing to understand you and that, therefore, you are
forced to explain a particular concept to us, yet one more time. So,
on the few occasions that your utterances aren't motivated by your
close adherence to socialist theory, I think I can be forgiven if I
mistakenly think that they are. But for those infrequent moments, I apologize.
As for Mustafa, he may very well behave in all the ways that you describe.
But which response you make to his behavior, is your choice. An
alternative to what you invariably do, is just to allow him to
express his beliefs and his assertions and his anger and his sense of
superiority anddo or say nothing at all. How long do you imagine that
he would continue to insult you if you ignored him?
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 9:22 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: This sounds like Mostafa.
You would do a lot better if you just dumped the assumptions and
accepted the stated motivations that are clearly given. To allude to
just another example, you might stop calling my personal opinions
Marxist theory when they have little to do with Marxist theory and
when I point you to a book that I have never read the synopsis of
which makes me think it might explain what fascism is you wouldn't
assume that it gave some kind of Marxist definition of Marxism. But
again with Mostafa. He does not just explain his religion. He does
not just discuss it. He seeks people out and puts them on his
personal mailing list and won't let them go and when they ask to be
removed he just keeps bombarding them with his proselytizing anyway.
That is not exercising his freedom of speech. That is out and out
harassment and I see no excuse for it. As for telling him that his
preaching is not welcome on this list, I set up this list with the
full intention of moderating it by not moderating it. As far as I am
concerned he or anyone else can say anything they want here and I
have never banned or altered any post that he has ever made here. He
can exercise his freedom of speech here, but he has to face up to the
fact that some people will disagree with him and say so. I not only
say so, but I show him where he is wrong. Of course, with faith on
his side he will not admit it no matter how well I show him to be
wrong, but I still show him to be wrong
---
Voltaire
“ Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit
atrocities. ”
― Voltaire,
On 7/22/2019 5:16 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
I didn't mean that you literally represent the American empire. What
I meant was that all of us on this list, represent the American
empire to Mustafa. We're all in America. He's writing to us about
what our government does. Why do you suppose that he does that?
I suppose that you're correct when you say that I'm making
assumptions about people's motivations. That's what most people do
and I do that a lot because of my professional training and because
of my personal inclinations. And I don't always accept the reasons
that people give for their behavior as their true motivations. I
can see how that might make you angry.
As for proselytizing, there were two times in my life when someone
tried to convince me to believe in God. Each time, I responded that
I had my own beliefs and value system, that I respected their right
to believe as they did, and I would appreciate it if they would
respect my right to do the same. It was friendly and there were no
arguments. So I suspect that when Mustafa began to write about
religion, you could have chosen not to answer those particular
posts, just as I did, and there would have been no more discussion.
Or you might have written that you respected his right to his
religious beliefs, but you would appreciate it if he did not share
them on this list. I don't know what his response would have been to
that. But you chose to debate him instead. You made a decision that
if anyone began attempting to convince you to believe as he or she
did about religion, it was your right and your duty to fight back.
When Mustafa has written about religion on other lists, other people
have made similar choices. Given the results of these discussions,
I wonder why people keep having them. The only conclusion which I
can draw is that you derive some kind of emotional satisfaction from
endless argument. From your explanation to me, it sounds like what
you're saying is that you are seeking revenge because you say, " I
don't know why you want to try to pretend to read minds when I so
clearly lay out to you why I am actually doing something. Mostafa is a bully and a
harasser and I am giving it right back to him."
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 3:43 PM
To: blind-democracy<blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: This sounds like Mostafa.
On two levels you seem to have never paid attention to anything I
have ever said. It is a real stretch to say that I represent U.S.
imperialism. I have denounced imperialism over and over. But on the
second level you are trying to read minds, both mine and Mostafa's.
Does it not even occur to you to accept stated motives rather than
pretend to know what people are thinking and base your guesses at
motives on your assumed telepathy. Okay, let me explain it again.
While I may get some gratification out of winning a contest of logic
against Mostafa that is not why I do it. I also do not do it to
convince him of anything. I have said over and over that no matter
how religious a person might be, if they don't bother me about their
religion I don't bother them about their religion. But when it comes
to those religious harassers it is another matter. I am talking
about the ones who follow you around trying to beat you over the
head with their religion. I am talking about the ones will not leave
you alone no matter how much you tell them that you are not
interested. I am talking about the kind of people who will follow a
blind man down the street screaming at him that god has struck him
blind because he turned his back on Jesus. I got fed up with those
ass holes years ago, but no matter how much I tell them that I am
fed up with them insulting my intelligence with their harassment
they won't stop. So here we have a religious harasser. He is the
first Muslim harasser I have come across unless you count the one
who would not let me off his email list back before Mostafa came
along, but he is still a religious harasser. He first came to my
attention when other people started to complain about him on various
email lists. He harvested email addresses and bombarded people with
his proselytizing and when they asked to be removed he refused. When
people blocked him he tried to get around the blocks. This is
outright harassment. It is bullying. So I fight back. I may not
fight back in the same way that others fight back, but I fight back.
I engage him in logical debate because he insults my intelligence
and since this is an argument that I always win I always manage to
point up who the real idiot is. And don't say that I win in my own
mind. When I make a logical argument or point out a logical fallacy
in his arguments and he has no refutation, but only launches into a
tantrum of name calling, insults and threats, I win and my win is
right there for you and anyone who is reading the exchange to see. I
take on the challenge because if he wants to insult my intelligence it is like
saying, okay, let's see who the real fool is. Now, I have told you my motives
again. There is no reason for you to ignore what I have said that my motives
for taking on Mostafa are.
I don't know why you want to try to pretend to read minds when I so
clearly lay out to you why I am actually doing something. Mostafa is
a bully and a harasser and I am giving it right back to him.
---
Voltaire
“ Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit
atrocities. ”
― Voltaire,
On 7/22/2019 9:27 AM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
I forgot one more factor and that is a political one. In these
debates, Roger inadvertently represents the US, the super power of
the world, the country that overthrows democracies in favor of
dictators who support it and then provides military aid to the
dictators. It has proclaimed, since W Bush's administration, a
Christian crusade, with many members of the military saying this
explicitly. Mustafa is a citizen of one of the multitude of
countries that the US dominates. When Mustafa proclaims his version
of the truth on our list, he is also proclaiming his rage at the US
for how it behaves in the Middle East. Roger's self satisfaction
when he believes that he has won a logical argument, doesn't undo
any of what is really going on. Winning an argument with logic
doesn't obliterate religious belief or the anger of people in other
countries or Mustafa's need to assert himself. It's kind of like
getting into a fist fight in a bar. You win the fight and you feel good
momentarily, but nothing has changed.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Loran Bailey
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 9:54 PM
To:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [blind-democracy] Re: This sounds like Mostafa.
Name calling and insult throwing is not an example of poor English
skills. It is just hostility and tantrum throwing. I bested Mostafa
in a debate in logic. He has been throwing a tantrum ever since.
---
Voltaire
“ Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit
atrocities. ”
― Voltaire,
On 7/21/2019 9:18 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
There may be several factors involved in the faulty communication
between Roger and Mustafa. One of them is Mustafa's limitations in
expressing himself in English. He may be sounding more emphatic
than he means to because he doesn't know the idioms and nuances of
the English language. Roger may not always truly comprehend what
Mustafa is attempting to say. Another problem is that they come
from totally different cultural backgrounds. They don't start from
the same assumptions. That fact certainly impedes positive
communication. A third factor may be that each is emotionally
invested in his point of view. When they become involved in verbal
confrontations, each feels that his manhood or his is involved.
And there's one more thing. Roger apparently believes that it is
his duty to educate everyone or, to put it another way, to
convince everyone to think as he does. Mustafa may have the same
compulsion. I don't enjoy battles so I don't read their email
debates. I just delete them. I remember one night when Joe and
Frank were engaged in a terrible email fight. That was an awful experience and
it was the last time I ever read battling emails.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx On Behalf Of Roger
Loran Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 8:41 PM
To:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Carl Jarvis<carjar82@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: This sounds like Mostafa.
By all means, any of us can have a gap in our education. That was
a point I was making in my other message about whether there is
such a thing as a stupid question. If it is an honest question
asked in an attempt to learn it is not a stupid question.
Sometimes it can be a bit frustrating when you realize that in
order to answer it in a way that the questioner will understand
you will have to start educating that person from an elementary school level
and I, for one, cannot do that.
However, if it is an honest question asked with the intention of
learning I can try to do my best to answer. However, an honest
attempt to learn is not what Mostafa is doing with his ignorant
questions and pronouncements. He proudly shows his ignorance in
order to discredit entire branches of science. He shows his
ignorance in order to discredit me. At least that is what he is
trying to do. But he manages to actually ask questions that have
to be called stupid questions. They are stupid because when he
gets an answer he refuses to accept it. He just keeps repeating
the ignorance that he has been caught up in. That is a refusal to
learn. It is just a hostile act. And what he discredits more than anything is
himself.
---
Voltaire
??? Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you
commit atrocities. ???
??? Voltaire,
On 7/21/2019 1:02 PM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
It's frustrating. But I would point out that any of us can have
a gap in our education, or a lack of ability to grasp information
that is well understood by other people.
The value of an opinion based list, such as this one should be,
that we can expose our lack of education and receive positive
guidance without feeling threatened or put down. But that calls
for an open mind on our part, and understanding people who give
their information and opinions in a helpful and caring manner.
Carl Jarvis...who has learned a great deal through interaction on
this list.
On 7/20/19, Roger Loran Bailey<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I just had to tell you guys about this. This sounds exactly like
something Mostafa would say. There is a Facebook discussion
group on the subject of science that I subscribe to. It is open
to all, but I would expect that people who would subscribe would
have some interest in science and so would have some kind of
knowledge of science even if only rudimentary. Apparently that
is not the case.
Someone just showed up and said that we all know that combustion
requires the presence of oxygen, so is there oxygen in the sun
to make combustion take place there? Some others started to give
answers explaining that chemical combustion takes place in the
presence of oxygen, but that what is happening in the sun is
nuclear fusion. Personally, it seems to me that if a person
could seriously ask that question then it is unlikely that he
would understand such answers. I would not be surprised if he
did not even know what nuclear fusion is. I did not even bother
to try to answer him. With someone like that the only way to
give a good answer would be to go back to elementary science
class and teach him that and to continue to teach him until he
finally reached a point that he could understand. This is
exactly how I feel when Mostafa asks questions like, if we
descended from monkeys then why are there still monkeys?
How can you give a meaningful answer to someone that ignorant?
It is exasperating. It is also similar to another one I saw
once. I don't know if this was supposed to be a joke, but if it
wasn't it is about just as exasperating. Someone from Nigeria
once asked, if the Earth really rotates then why am I still in Nigeria?
--
---
Voltaire
??? Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you
commit atrocities. ???
??? Voltaire,
