As for Laz, I bought a magnetic cable from him. When I got it I was
unfamiliar with those cables, so I didn't understand exactly how it was
put together. I asked about it on the Victor list and then started to
speculate in the form of questions about what the problem might be In
the middle of the questions was this one. Could Laz have forgotten to
pack a piece of it? Even though I mentioned several other possibilities
he took offense and his temper showed a bit on list. The problem I was
having was my own ignorance of the device, but he did not like that I
speculated that he might have made a mistake. That was enough to make me
a little bit wary of doing business with him again. As for Mostafa, this
time let me explain it very simply this time. He antagonizes people. I
antagonize him right back. It is fun to antagonize an antagonizer. It is
fun to get messages full of insults and name calling from him because
that proves my point so well. Yes, it is fun to antagonize him.
---
Voltaire
“ Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities. ”
― Voltaire,
On 7/23/2019 9:40 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
I receive a lot of emails that I don't want from various groups. Sometimes, I
can unsubscribe from them. Sometimes, I can't so I just use my email program's
option to block emails from the sources in which I'm not interested. If that
doesn't work, I just delete them. I doubt that I'd ever take the time and
energy to get into an argument with someone about being taken off his list.
Well actually, that's how I got into trouble with Laz and why he hates me and
takes personal offense at anything I write which might concern a product he
sells. What happened is that several years ago, someone on another list
recommended that I buy a particular cell phone from Laz. I bought the phone and
then his company acted as a facilitator for paying the monthly bill to some
small cell phone company that serves a predominantly Spanish speaking
clientele. The charges were paid through my Visa card each month and then,
apparently, forwarded to this company. I almost never used that cell phone. I
had it in case the electricity and phone service went out in my apartment. But
on the day that I was moving to the house where I now live, I desperately
needed that phone and when I tried to use it, I got a message that the bill was
unpaid. I had the person who was helping me that morning, contact Laz and their
communication was, less than satisfactory. He said he was sorry, but there was
a gliche and that was why the bill hadn't been paid. He told me afterward that
my friend was very nasty to him. This was a person who'd helped me with errands
and shopping for 25 years and she was never unkind to anyone, not that I'd ever
observed, not even when she felt angry. Right after that debacle, Laz told me
that he was no longer going to be responsible for anyone's cell phone bills.
The reason that this is relevant is that right after I'd purchased that cell
phone from Laz all those years ago, I started receiving very frequent emails
from his company about sales and products. I emailed him and asked him to
please take me off his email sales list and he did so. So all those years later
when the phone bill wasn't paid on the day I moved and he then said he was no
longer paying the bills for his customers, Laz also said that had I not asked
him to take me off his mailing list, I would have known that he was no longer
paying the phone bills.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx On Behalf Of Roger Loran Bailey (Redacted
sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2019 8:37 PM
To: blind-democracy <blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: This sounds like Mostafa.
Actually, the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons or whoever come around door
to door don't bother me that much. For the fun of it I have sat down and argued
a bit with them. They are used to Christians arguing with them and they were
totally unprepared for my arguments. That's what makes it so much fun. Like I
said, it is an argument that I always win.
But I actually kind of sympathize with them. I have done my share of door to
door work for political reasons and I can make the understatement that some
people who answer the door are less than polite. Threatening to shoot you is an
example of less than friendly.
That is why when I argue with them I try to remain polite and friendly even as
I nail them. But if you tell them to go away, if you tell them you are not
interested they do go away and when they come back it is usually a long time
later and it is a different set of missionaries that were probably unaware of
the earlier request. Now, that is exercising freedom of speech and it is not
harassment. It is the ones who follow you around and will not take no for an
answer and never let up who are the harassers. That is a completely other
matter and that is what Mostafa is. I think it is also what a certain other
person based in Egypt is like. It was a Yahoo email list. This was not too long
after I first got Internet access. I was browsing Yahoo groups and came across
one that was an announce only list that was about the Qur'an. Out of curiosity
I subscribed. It turned out to be a daily quotation from the Qur'an with some
commentary. The commentary almost always told what you would have to do to
avoid the fire, as it was put. After a while my curiosity was satisfied and I
unsubscribed. The next day I was subscribed again. I tried unsubscribing
several times and kept being resubscribed again. Finally I used the contact
information at the bottom of the emails to contact the list owner. He got back
to me and told me that he would not let me unsubscribe because he needed to
save me from the fire. I had to argue with him and finally I had to start to
get nasty with him. He finally did let me go. I forget his name, but it was not
Mostafa. He was based in Egypt though. Then later on Mostafa came along and he
seems to have the same attitude. Again, this is not exercising freedom of
speech. This is harassment. Once on this list I said that if I had to be
stranded on a desert island with either a Christian or a Jew I would pick the
Jewish island mate without hesitation because no Jew has ever tried to beat me
over the head with his or her religion. I could have said the same thing about
Muslims.
Most of the Muslims I have ever met were foreign students when I was in
college. That was before Iran got on the U.S. shit list, so most of them were
Iranians. There was at least one Egyptian, though, and I think some of the
African students were Muslim. I am going to have to admit to some assumptions
myself because I did tend to assume that if they came from certain countries,
like Iran, that if they had a religion it was probably Islam. But most of them
never mentioned a religion at all. Some of them did admit to being Muslim, but
it was in response to my own comments or questions. I met a few Muslims over
time outside of college too, but it was the same. They were not interested in
proselytizing me.
I remember having a conversation about Ramadan with a convenience store
proprietor, for example. He did say that he was Muslim and that was why he
closed his store for a time during Ramadan, but he was relaxed and there was no
hint that he wanted to convert me. But the guy with the Qur'an Yahoo group and
Mostafa have both taught me that Muslims can be as bad as Christians with the
religious bullying. Because most of the Muslims I have met were not like that I
am assuming that, like Christians, most Muslims in the world are not like that,
But people like Mostafa prove that you certainly can't say that about all of
them.
---
Voltaire
“ Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities. ”
― Voltaire,
On 7/23/2019 9:29 AM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Very possibly I would have more of that kind of experience if I lived where you do. But
one of the situations was, in fact, when I was traveling in Kenya. One of the couples in
our group were Evangelical Christians. They were very kind to me, very friendly. But one
day, the woman took me aside and began talking to me very seriously about the state of my
soul. She really did care about me and she was really worried about what would happen to
me if I didn't, "see the light". That was really hard to deal with because it
was personal, and she did care. But there are missionaries all over. Jehovah's Witnesses
and Seventh Day Adventists were constantly knocking on the door of my house in Westbury.
One day I came home to find that my twelve year old daughter had allowed them into our
living room and they'd given her all sorts of pamphlets and had gotten her to promise to
attend their Sunday school. Another time, my friend Art was walking down the street with
his white cane, and a man stopped him and told him that he was being punished for his
sins by God and that was why he was blind.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Loran Bailey
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 9:36 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [blind-democracy] Re: This sounds like Mostafa.
I tried to send a message and some how it just disappeared on me. That will
explain why I am repeating myself here just in case it does show up. By the
way, I would say that if you have had only two people push their religion on
you and they stopped when you told them to stop you have been really lucky, but
I think I may see why you got off so easy.
You have described to us some of your travels including your globe trotting and
that you spent some time in Michigan, but just how much time have you spent
south of the Mason Dixon line? And I don't think Florida counts. Most people in
Florida were not born in Florida, so it has an entirely different flavor. The
area is called the bible belt, but it might be more accurate to call it the
evangelical belt because these sects are not satisfied with just being bible
believers. They think they have to evangelize everyone else into being bible
believers. I think I live in the northern fringes of the bible belt, so I may
not be in the worst of it, but I do seem to be in it anyway. I suspect that if
you lived around here you would not have had it so easy.
---
Voltaire
“ Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities. ”
― Voltaire,
On 7/22/2019 5:16 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
I didn't mean that you literally represent the American empire. What I meant
was that all of us on this list, represent the American empire to Mustafa.
We're all in America. He's writing to us about what our government does. Why do
you suppose that he does that?
I suppose that you're correct when you say that I'm making assumptions about
people's motivations. That's what most people do and I do that a lot because of
my professional training and because of my personal inclinations. And I don't
always accept the reasons that people give for their behavior as their true
motivations. I can see how that might make you angry.
As for proselytizing, there were two times in my life when someone tried to convince me
to believe in God. Each time, I responded that I had my own beliefs and value system,
that I respected their right to believe as they did, and I would appreciate it if they
would respect my right to do the same. It was friendly and there were no arguments. So I
suspect that when Mustafa began to write about religion, you could have chosen not to
answer those particular posts, just as I did, and there would have been no more
discussion. Or you might have written that you respected his right to his religious
beliefs, but you would appreciate it if he did not share them on this list. I don't know
what his response would have been to that. But you chose to debate him instead. You made
a decision that if anyone began attempting to convince you to believe as he or she did
about religion, it was your right and your duty to fight back. When Mustafa has written
about religion on other lists, other people have made similar choices. Given the results
of these discussions, I wonder why people keep having them. The only conclusion which I
can draw is that you derive some kind of emotional satisfaction from endless argument.
From your explanation to me, it sounds like what you're saying is that you are seeking
revenge because you say, " I don't know why you want to try to pretend to read minds
when I so clearly lay out to you why I am actually doing something. Mostafa is a bully
and a harasser and I am giving it right back to him."
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 3:43 PM
To: blind-democracy <blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: This sounds like Mostafa.
On two levels you seem to have never paid attention to anything I have ever
said. It is a real stretch to say that I represent U.S.
imperialism. I have denounced imperialism over and over. But on the second
level you are trying to read minds, both mine and Mostafa's. Does it not even
occur to you to accept stated motives rather than pretend to know what people
are thinking and base your guesses at motives on your assumed telepathy. Okay,
let me explain it again. While I may get some gratification out of winning a
contest of logic against Mostafa that is not why I do it. I also do not do it
to convince him of anything. I have said over and over that no matter how
religious a person might be, if they don't bother me about their religion I
don't bother them about their religion. But when it comes to those religious
harassers it is another matter. I am talking about the ones who follow you
around trying to beat you over the head with their religion. I am talking about
the ones will not leave you alone no matter how much you tell them that you are
not interested. I am talking about the kind of people who will follow a blind
man down the street screaming at him that god has struck him blind because he
turned his back on Jesus. I got fed up with those ass holes years ago, but no
matter how much I tell them that I am fed up with them insulting my
intelligence with their harassment they won't stop. So here we have a religious
harasser. He is the first Muslim harasser I have come across unless you count
the one who would not let me off his email list back before Mostafa came along,
but he is still a religious harasser. He first came to my attention when other
people started to complain about him on various email lists. He harvested email
addresses and bombarded people with his proselytizing and when they asked to be
removed he refused. When people blocked him he tried to get around the blocks.
This is outright harassment. It is bullying. So I fight back. I may not fight
back in the same way that others fight back, but I fight back. I engage him in
logical debate because he insults my intelligence and since this is an argument
that I always win I always manage to point up who the real idiot is. And don't
say that I win in my own mind. When I make a logical argument or point out a
logical fallacy in his arguments and he has no refutation, but only launches
into a tantrum of name calling, insults and threats, I win and my win is right
there for you and anyone who is reading the exchange to see. I take on the
challenge because if he wants to insult my intelligence it is like saying,
okay, let's see who the real fool is. Now, I have told you my motives again.
There is no reason for you to ignore what I have said that my motives for
taking on Mostafa are. I don't know why you want to try to pretend to read
minds when I so clearly lay out to you why I am actually doing something.
Mostafa is a bully and a harasser and I am giving it right back to him.
---
Voltaire
“ Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities. ”
― Voltaire,
On 7/22/2019 9:27 AM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
I forgot one more factor and that is a political one. In these debates, Roger
inadvertently represents the US, the super power of the world, the country that
overthrows democracies in favor of dictators who support it and then provides
military aid to the dictators. It has proclaimed, since W Bush's
administration, a Christian crusade, with many members of the military saying
this explicitly. Mustafa is a citizen of one of the multitude of countries that
the US dominates. When Mustafa proclaims his version of the truth on our list,
he is also proclaiming his rage at the US for how it behaves in the Middle
East. Roger's self satisfaction when he believes that he has won a logical
argument, doesn't undo any of what is really going on. Winning an argument with
logic doesn't obliterate religious belief or the anger of people in other
countries or Mustafa's need to assert himself. It's kind of like getting into a
fist fight in a bar. You win the fight and you feel good momentarily, but
nothing has changed.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Loran Bailey
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 9:54 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [blind-democracy] Re: This sounds like Mostafa.
Name calling and insult throwing is not an example of poor English skills. It
is just hostility and tantrum throwing. I bested Mostafa in a debate in logic.
He has been throwing a tantrum ever since.
---
Voltaire
“ Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities. ”
― Voltaire,
On 7/21/2019 9:18 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
There may be several factors involved in the faulty communication between Roger
and Mustafa. One of them is Mustafa's limitations in expressing himself in
English. He may be sounding more emphatic than he means to because he doesn't
know the idioms and nuances of the English language. Roger may not always truly
comprehend what Mustafa is attempting to say. Another problem is that they come
from totally different cultural backgrounds. They don't start from the same
assumptions. That fact certainly impedes positive communication. A third factor
may be that each is emotionally invested in his point of view. When they become
involved in verbal confrontations, each feels that his manhood or his is
involved. And there's one more thing. Roger apparently believes that it is his
duty to educate everyone or, to put it another way, to convince everyone to
think as he does. Mustafa may have the same compulsion. I don't enjoy battles
so I don't read their email debates. I just delete them. I remember one night
when Joe and Frank were engaged in a terrible email fight. That was an awful
experience and it was the last time I ever read battling emails.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 8:41 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Carl Jarvis <carjar82@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: This sounds like Mostafa.
By all means, any of us can have a gap in our education. That was a point I was
making in my other message about whether there is such a thing as a stupid
question. If it is an honest question asked in an attempt to learn it is not a
stupid question. Sometimes it can be a bit frustrating when you realize that in
order to answer it in a way that the questioner will understand you will have
to start educating that person from an elementary school level and I, for one,
cannot do that.
However, if it is an honest question asked with the intention of learning I can
try to do my best to answer. However, an honest attempt to learn is not what
Mostafa is doing with his ignorant questions and pronouncements. He proudly
shows his ignorance in order to discredit entire branches of science. He shows
his ignorance in order to discredit me. At least that is what he is trying to
do. But he manages to actually ask questions that have to be called stupid
questions. They are stupid because when he gets an answer he refuses to accept
it. He just keeps repeating the ignorance that he has been caught up in. That
is a refusal to learn. It is just a hostile act. And what he discredits more
than anything is himself.
---
Voltaire
??? Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.
???
??? Voltaire,
On 7/21/2019 1:02 PM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
It's frustrating. But I would point out that any of us can have a
gap in our education, or a lack of ability to grasp information
that is well understood by other people.
The value of an opinion based list, such as this one should be,
that we can expose our lack of education and receive positive
guidance without feeling threatened or put down. But that calls
for an open mind on our part, and understanding people who give
their information and opinions in a helpful and caring manner.
Carl Jarvis...who has learned a great deal through interaction on this list.
On 7/20/19, Roger Loran Bailey <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I just had to tell you guys about this. This sounds exactly like
something Mostafa would say. There is a Facebook discussion group
on the subject of science that I subscribe to. It is open to all,
but I would expect that people who would subscribe would have
some interest in science and so would have some kind of knowledge
of science even if only rudimentary. Apparently that is not the case.
Someone just showed up and said that we all know that combustion
requires the presence of oxygen, so is there oxygen in the sun to
make combustion take place there? Some others started to give
answers explaining that chemical combustion takes place in the
presence of oxygen, but that what is happening in the sun is
nuclear fusion. Personally, it seems to me that if a person could
seriously ask that question then it is unlikely that he would
understand such answers. I would not be surprised if he did not
even know what nuclear fusion is. I did not even bother to try to
answer him. With someone like that the only way to give a good
answer would be to go back to elementary science class and teach
him that and to continue to teach him until he finally reached a
point that he could understand. This is exactly how I feel when
Mostafa asks questions like, if we descended from monkeys then why are there
still monkeys?
How can you give a meaningful answer to someone that ignorant? It
is exasperating. It is also similar to another one I saw once. I
don't know if this was supposed to be a joke, but if it wasn't it
is about just as exasperating. Someone from Nigeria once asked, if the Earth
really rotates then why am I still in Nigeria?
--
---
Voltaire
??? Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you
commit atrocities. ???
??? Voltaire,
