Your first message did come through. I almost believe in some
invisible almighty power that moves silently through the internet,
wrecking havoc for no good reason, other than it can.
My family came from West Virginia, near Grafton, and migrated to
Missouri. That was my great granddad James Monroe Jarvis(1859-1933).
James was a miner and one of his sons, my grandfather Fletcher James
Jarvis was also a miner. His other two sons John and Sam became
preachers, John a highly educated Presbyterian pastor of a large flock
in Joplin, and Sam became an Evangelical Preacher...a Bible thumper in
the tradition of the South. My grandmother Jarvis was a devout
Believer, Baptized in the Holy Spirit and convinced that if she
trusted hard enough, God would perform miracles in her behalf.
Divorced with two children, Grandmother Jarvis ran a Boarding House in
Web City, near Joplin. She met Fletch Jarvis, who worked mines
between Web City and Oklahoma, married him and they produced a fine
son, my dad. Grandmother Jarvis ended up in Seattle, following many
adventures, and eventually settled down in a low income apartment just
South of Down Town Seattle.
Grandmother Jarvis had a group of Ladies who all came in from the
Bible Belt. They would gather around grandma's radio and place their
hands on it while kneeling. With their heads tossed back and their
little "miracle healing" cloths spread over their faces, and Brother
Ralph on the radio, they cried out for healing. They were all around
80, so healing was high on their prayer list. Grandmother Jarvis told
me many tales of strange happenings that she claimed were God sent.
And she was a devoted Republican, voting over and over against her
best interests.
Strange world!
Carl Jarvis
On 7/22/19, Roger Loran Bailey <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I tried to send a message and some how it just disappeared on me. That
will explain why I am repeating myself here just in case it does show
up. By the way, I would say that if you have had only two people push
their religion on you and they stopped when you told them to stop you
have been really lucky, but I think I may see why you got off so easy.
You have described to us some of your travels including your globe
trotting and that you spent some time in Michigan, but just how much
time have you spent south of the Mason Dixon line? And I don't think
Florida counts. Most people in Florida were not born in Florida, so it
has an entirely different flavor. The area is called the bible belt, but
it might be more accurate to call it the evangelical belt because these
sects are not satisfied with just being bible believers. They think they
have to evangelize everyone else into being bible believers. I think I
live in the northern fringes of the bible belt, so I may not be in the
worst of it, but I do seem to be in it anyway. I suspect that if you
lived around here you would not have had it so easy.
---
Voltaire
“ Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit
atrocities. ”
― Voltaire,
On 7/22/2019 5:16 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
I didn't mean that you literally represent the American empire. What I
meant was that all of us on this list, represent the American empire to
Mustafa. We're all in America. He's writing to us about what our
government does. Why do you suppose that he does that?
I suppose that you're correct when you say that I'm making assumptions
about people's motivations. That's what most people do and I do that a lot
because of my professional training and because of my personal
inclinations. And I don't always accept the reasons that people give for
their behavior as their true motivations. I can see how that might make
you angry.
As for proselytizing, there were two times in my life when someone tried
to convince me to believe in God. Each time, I responded that I had my own
beliefs and value system, that I respected their right to believe as they
did, and I would appreciate it if they would respect my right to do the
same. It was friendly and there were no arguments. So I suspect that when
Mustafa began to write about religion, you could have chosen not to answer
those particular posts, just as I did, and there would have been no more
discussion. Or you might have written that you respected his right to his
religious beliefs, but you would appreciate it if he did not share them on
this list. I don't know what his response would have been to that. But you
chose to debate him instead. You made a decision that if anyone began
attempting to convince you to believe as he or she did about religion, it
was your right and your duty to fight back. When Mustafa has written about
religion on other lists, other people have made similar choices. Given
the results of these discussions, I wonder why people keep having them.
The only conclusion which I can draw is that you derive some kind of
emotional satisfaction from endless argument. From your explanation to me,
it sounds like what you're saying is that you are seeking revenge because
you say, " I don't know why you want to try to pretend to read minds when
I so clearly lay out to you why I am actually doing something. Mostafa is
a bully and a harasser and I am giving it right back to him."
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx On Behalf Of Roger Loran Bailey
(Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 3:43 PM
To: blind-democracy <blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: This sounds like Mostafa.
On two levels you seem to have never paid attention to anything I have
ever said. It is a real stretch to say that I represent U.S.
imperialism. I have denounced imperialism over and over. But on the second
level you are trying to read minds, both mine and Mostafa's. Does it not
even occur to you to accept stated motives rather than pretend to know
what people are thinking and base your guesses at motives on your assumed
telepathy. Okay, let me explain it again. While I may get some
gratification out of winning a contest of logic against Mostafa that is
not why I do it. I also do not do it to convince him of anything. I have
said over and over that no matter how religious a person might be, if they
don't bother me about their religion I don't bother them about their
religion. But when it comes to those religious harassers it is another
matter. I am talking about the ones who follow you around trying to beat
you over the head with their religion. I am talking about the ones will
not leave you alone no matter how much you tell them that you are not
interested. I am talking about the kind of people who will follow a blind
man down the street screaming at him that god has struck him blind because
he turned his back on Jesus. I got fed up with those ass holes years ago,
but no matter how much I tell them that I am fed up with them insulting my
intelligence with their harassment they won't stop. So here we have a
religious harasser. He is the first Muslim harasser I have come across
unless you count the one who would not let me off his email list back
before Mostafa came along, but he is still a religious harasser. He first
came to my attention when other people started to complain about him on
various email lists. He harvested email addresses and bombarded people
with his proselytizing and when they asked to be removed he refused. When
people blocked him he tried to get around the blocks. This is outright
harassment. It is bullying. So I fight back. I may not fight back in the
same way that others fight back, but I fight back. I engage him in logical
debate because he insults my intelligence and since this is an argument
that I always win I always manage to point up who the real idiot is. And
don't say that I win in my own mind. When I make a logical argument or
point out a logical fallacy in his arguments and he has no refutation, but
only launches into a tantrum of name calling, insults and threats, I win
and my win is right there for you and anyone who is reading the exchange
to see. I take on the challenge because if he wants to insult my
intelligence it is like saying, okay, let's see who the real fool is. Now,
I have told you my motives again. There is no reason for you to ignore
what I have said that my motives for taking on Mostafa are. I don't know
why you want to try to pretend to read minds when I so clearly lay out to
you why I am actually doing something. Mostafa is a bully and a harasser
and I am giving it right back to him.
---
Voltaire
“ Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit
atrocities. ”
― Voltaire,
On 7/22/2019 9:27 AM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
I forgot one more factor and that is a political one. In these debates,
Roger inadvertently represents the US, the super power of the world, the
country that overthrows democracies in favor of dictators who support it
and then provides military aid to the dictators. It has proclaimed, since
W Bush's administration, a Christian crusade, with many members of the
military saying this explicitly. Mustafa is a citizen of one of the
multitude of countries that the US dominates. When Mustafa proclaims his
version of the truth on our list, he is also proclaiming his rage at the
US for how it behaves in the Middle East. Roger's self satisfaction when
he believes that he has won a logical argument, doesn't undo any of what
is really going on. Winning an argument with logic doesn't obliterate
religious belief or the anger of people in other countries or Mustafa's
need to assert himself. It's kind of like getting into a fist fight in a
bar. You win the fight and you feel good momentarily, but nothing has
changed.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Loran Bailey
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 9:54 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [blind-democracy] Re: This sounds like Mostafa.
Name calling and insult throwing is not an example of poor English
skills. It is just hostility and tantrum throwing. I bested Mostafa in a
debate in logic. He has been throwing a tantrum ever since.
---
Voltaire
“ Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit
atrocities. ”
― Voltaire,
On 7/21/2019 9:18 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
There may be several factors involved in the faulty communication
between Roger and Mustafa. One of them is Mustafa's limitations in
expressing himself in English. He may be sounding more emphatic than he
means to because he doesn't know the idioms and nuances of the English
language. Roger may not always truly comprehend what Mustafa is
attempting to say. Another problem is that they come from totally
different cultural backgrounds. They don't start from the same
assumptions. That fact certainly impedes positive communication. A third
factor may be that each is emotionally invested in his point of view.
When they become involved in verbal confrontations, each feels that his
manhood or his is involved. And there's one more thing. Roger apparently
believes that it is his duty to educate everyone or, to put it another
way, to convince everyone to think as he does. Mustafa may have the same
compulsion. I don't enjoy battles so I don't read their email debates. I
just delete them. I remember one night when Joe and Frank were engaged
in a terrible email fight. That was an awful experience and it was the
last time I ever read battling emails.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 8:41 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Carl Jarvis <carjar82@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: This sounds like Mostafa.
By all means, any of us can have a gap in our education. That was a
point I was making in my other message about whether there is such a
thing as a stupid question. If it is an honest question asked in an
attempt to learn it is not a stupid question. Sometimes it can be a bit
frustrating when you realize that in order to answer it in a way that
the questioner will understand you will have to start educating that
person from an elementary school level and I, for one, cannot do that.
However, if it is an honest question asked with the intention of
learning I can try to do my best to answer. However, an honest attempt
to learn is not what Mostafa is doing with his ignorant questions and
pronouncements. He proudly shows his ignorance in order to discredit
entire branches of science. He shows his ignorance in order to discredit
me. At least that is what he is trying to do. But he manages to actually
ask questions that have to be called stupid questions. They are stupid
because when he gets an answer he refuses to accept it. He just keeps
repeating the ignorance that he has been caught up in. That is a refusal
to learn. It is just a hostile act. And what he discredits more than
anything is himself.
---
Voltaire
??? Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit
atrocities. ???
??? Voltaire,
On 7/21/2019 1:02 PM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
It's frustrating. But I would point out that any of us can have a
gap in our education, or a lack of ability to grasp information that
is well understood by other people.
The value of an opinion based list, such as this one should be, that
we can expose our lack of education and receive positive guidance
without feeling threatened or put down. But that calls for an open
mind on our part, and understanding people who give their
information and opinions in a helpful and caring manner.
Carl Jarvis...who has learned a great deal through interaction on this
list.
On 7/20/19, Roger Loran Bailey <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I just had to tell you guys about this. This sounds exactly like
something Mostafa would say. There is a Facebook discussion group
on the subject of science that I subscribe to. It is open to all,
but I would expect that people who would subscribe would have some
interest in science and so would have some kind of knowledge of
science even if only rudimentary. Apparently that is not the case.
Someone just showed up and said that we all know that combustion
requires the presence of oxygen, so is there oxygen in the sun to
make combustion take place there? Some others started to give
answers explaining that chemical combustion takes place in the
presence of oxygen, but that what is happening in the sun is
nuclear fusion. Personally, it seems to me that if a person could
seriously ask that question then it is unlikely that he would
understand such answers. I would not be surprised if he did not
even know what nuclear fusion is. I did not even bother to try to
answer him. With someone like that the only way to give a good
answer would be to go back to elementary science class and teach
him that and to continue to teach him until he finally reached a
point that he could understand. This is exactly how I feel when
Mostafa asks questions like, if we descended from monkeys then why are
there still monkeys?
How can you give a meaningful answer to someone that ignorant? It
is exasperating. It is also similar to another one I saw once. I
don't know if this was supposed to be a joke, but if it wasn't it
is about just as exasperating. Someone from Nigeria once asked, if the
Earth really rotates then why am I still in Nigeria?
--
---
Voltaire
??? Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit
atrocities. ???
??? Voltaire,
