Don't you care how unkind this email sounds? If you say it's so much fund to
give back to a bully , what he dishes out, that sounds sadistic. It doesn't
sound like justice.
For the people who use the term, "middle class", it has a specific meaning. You
have a preference for the term, "bourgeois" and you define it as you have been
taught to. But that doesn't mean that the rest of us ought to use that term and
there's no requirement for us to think as you do.
Yes, you do repeat some things over and over again and I am paying attention.
But if I don't accept something that you have been repeating over and over
again at face value, it's usually because it doesn't make sense to me or it
sounds unbelievable. I'm not sure what you mean about my not accepting what you
say are your reasons for being as stubborn and unreasonable as Mustafa is. Your
reason is that you derive pleasure in using logic to win and argument. The only
problem with your explanation is that you haven't won the argument. You haven't
proven anything to Mustafa, , and all you've proven to the rest of us is that
you can be really nasty in your attempt to prove a point. Is that what you want
to do?
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx On Behalf Of Roger Loran Bailey
(Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2019 3:08 PM
To: blind-democracy <blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: This sounds like Mostafa.
The reason bourgeois is okay is that unlike middle class it actually has a
specific meaning. I have not blocked because it is so much fun to give
back to a bully what he dishes out and I have told you that. If you don't like
my saying that I have told you something over and over then pay attention to
what I say in the first place and accept it without making up motives for me
that have nothing to do with the motives that I clearly state over and over.
And, also, you do not have to look for evidence that I am a Marxist because I
forthrightly say that I am. But that does not mean that everything I say is
Marxist theory and so it would be really nice if you could learn how to tell a
personal opinion from Marxist theory.
---
Voltaire
“ Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities. ”
― Voltaire,
On 7/24/2019 12:53 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Roger,
Why is the word, bourgeois OK, but not middle class? Your reasons that you
state over and over again, which I have read over and over again, are your
particular private prejudice. They're not rational and shouldn't be imposed
on the rest of us. You say insulting things when I, or anyone else, uses that
word, even though it is in common useage and it doesn't mean what you choose
to believe that it means. The fact that I don't accept your censure, doesn't
make you the victim.
As for Mustafa, again, you keep repeating the same thing about him over and
over again. You refuse to see his behavior through another lens. Another list
member, someone from his culture and background, has just provided you with
some verification of what I say. But no matter what evidence is suggested to
you that his behavior might be motivated by something other than outright
meanness and bullying, you are sticking to your own opinion. Your behavior
mirrors his. You excuse your bullying by saying that you are defending
yourself. You claim that religious fanatics are pursuing you and that it is
your right to fight back. However, all that Mustafa is doing is asserting is
ideas and beliefs repeatedly on email lists. He would not be addressing you
directly if you hadn't responded to him. If you don't wish him to continue to
address emails to you which you find offensive, all you need to do is to
delete his emails without responding to him. Instead, you are choosing to
insult him publicly on an email list, sometimes, even when he hasn't been
writing anything at all.
Roger, this is my last email on the subject and I chose to write it, even
knowing that it would be upsetting to you, because I believe that you've been
unfair to Mustafa and also, to others of us on this list. The ways in which
you choose to disagree with us seem hurtful and insulting to me. Perhaps you
don't realize that. But to me, and certainly to Alice while she was a list
member, your responses seemed like bullying. You scold us by saying things
like, "'ve told you over and over again and somehow you don't understand
me...". You told me in several emails that I'm misrepresenting your opinions
when I say that they derive from Marxist theory. But every article you post
is from a Marxist oriented publication. You derogate anyone who uses the
word, "socialist", in ways that you deem to be inappropriate and you make
that decision based on its literal definition in the books you read. You've
told us that we use the word, "propaganda", inappropriately, also because we
weren't using it as its used in the socialist literature you read. I have no
idea how many people have chosen not to post to this list for fear of
bringing down your wrath, or how many people have quietly left the list
because although you say that there are no rules, they don't feel comfortable
here. I'm sorry to have felt that it was necessary to write this, but I don't
want to be a coward and just take the easy way out. Perhaps it's because I'm
reading a book about a very wealthy family whose wealth was vastly increased
by its investment in German industry during the Nazi era, or because I think
the Democratic Party, in its zeal to keep its donors and its swing voters,
has led us on a path to hell, or because the American public has allowed
itself to be manipulated into passivity. So I just feel that because this
email list has been very important to me over the past several years, I need
to speak out against something that seems wrong.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Loran Bailey
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2019 10:14 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [blind-democracy] Re: This sounds like Mostafa.
I am a Marxist, but that remark in there about the phrase middle class is an
example of exactly what I am talking about. Just what does my distaste for
the phrase middle class have to do with Marxism? Once before, after I had
explained over and over why I have a distaste for that phrase, you said that
you thought it was because it was not one of the classes that Marx had
delineated. I never have figured out why you thought that after I had
explained the real reasons I don't like it so many times. And that is why I
get so frustrated. I explain and explain a concept over and over and you just
don't get it and you just did it in this very message. As for Mostafa, this
is something else I have explained over and over. If Mostafa would just
express himself then he could just express himself. But he doesn't do that.
He is a relentless bully who insists on forcing his nonsense on people. I am
giving him back what he gives and I do notice that he is one of those people
who can dish it out, but can't take it.
---
Voltaire
“ Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.
”
― Voltaire,
On 7/23/2019 3:39 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Roger,
Am I mistaken in thinking that you are a socialist and that most of the
nonfiction material that you read is influenced by Marxist theory? Haven't
you criticized people who call themselves socialist when they do not adhere
to classical socialism? Do you not write disparagingly of anyone whose
opinions seem to you to be Liberal or bourgeois? Do you not disparage the
use of the term, middle class, and accuse those who define themselves as
such of being snobs? Do you not sneer at Democratic Socialists because they
aren't in favor of what you consider to be real socialism? Having seen all
of these themes in your posts for a good number of years, I have come to the
conclusion that you are a Marxist Socialist, whatever that actually is. You
have very fixed ideas about socialism and you continually try to
indoctrinate people with those ideas when you complain that some of us are
refusing to understand you and that, therefore, you are forced to explain a
particular concept to us, yet one more time. So, on the few occasions that
your utterances aren't motivated by your close adherence to socialist
theory, I think I can be forgiven if I mistakenly think that they are. But
for those infrequent moments, I apologize.
As for Mustafa, he may very well behave in all the ways that you describe.
But which response you make to his behavior, is your choice. An alternative
to what you invariably do, is just to allow him to express his beliefs and
his assertions and his anger and his sense of superiority anddo or say
nothing at all. How long do you imagine that he would continue to insult you
if you ignored him?
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 9:22 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: This sounds like Mostafa.
You would do a lot better if you just dumped the assumptions and
accepted the stated motivations that are clearly given. To allude to
just another example, you might stop calling my personal opinions
Marxist theory when they have little to do with Marxist theory and
when I point you to a book that I have never read the synopsis of
which makes me think it might explain what fascism is you wouldn't
assume that it gave some kind of Marxist definition of Marxism. But
again with Mostafa. He does not just explain his religion. He does
not just discuss it. He seeks people out and puts them on his
personal mailing list and won't let them go and when they ask to be
removed he just keeps bombarding them with his proselytizing anyway.
That is not exercising his freedom of speech. That is out and out
harassment and I see no excuse for it. As for telling him that his
preaching is not welcome on this list, I set up this list with the
full intention of moderating it by not moderating it. As far as I am
concerned he or anyone else can say anything they want here and I
have never banned or altered any post that he has ever made here. He
can exercise his freedom of speech here, but he has to face up to the
fact that some people will disagree with him and say so. I not only
say so, but I show him where he is wrong. Of course, with faith on
his side he will not admit it no matter how well I show him to be
wrong, but I still show him to be wrong
---
Voltaire
“ Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit
atrocities. ”
― Voltaire,
On 7/22/2019 5:16 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
I didn't mean that you literally represent the American empire. What I
meant was that all of us on this list, represent the American empire to
Mustafa. We're all in America. He's writing to us about what our government
does. Why do you suppose that he does that?
I suppose that you're correct when you say that I'm making assumptions
about people's motivations. That's what most people do and I do that a lot
because of my professional training and because of my personal
inclinations. And I don't always accept the reasons that people give for
their behavior as their true motivations. I can see how that might make
you angry.
As for proselytizing, there were two times in my life when someone tried to
convince me to believe in God. Each time, I responded that I had my own
beliefs and value system, that I respected their right to believe as they
did, and I would appreciate it if they would respect my right to do the
same. It was friendly and there were no arguments. So I suspect that when
Mustafa began to write about religion, you could have chosen not to answer
those particular posts, just as I did, and there would have been no more
discussion. Or you might have written that you respected his right to his
religious beliefs, but you would appreciate it if he did not share them on
this list. I don't know what his response would have been to that. But you
chose to debate him instead. You made a decision that if anyone began
attempting to convince you to believe as he or she did about religion, it
was your right and your duty to fight back. When Mustafa has written about
religion on other lists, other people have made similar choices. Given the
results of these discussions, I wonder why people keep having them. The
only conclusion which I can draw is that you derive some kind of emotional
satisfaction from endless argument. From your explanation to me, it sounds
like what you're saying is that you are seeking revenge because you say, "
I don't know why you want to try to pretend to read minds when I so clearly
lay out to you why I am actually doing something. Mostafa is a bully and a
harasser and I am giving it right back to him."
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 3:43 PM
To: blind-democracy<blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: This sounds like Mostafa.
On two levels you seem to have never paid attention to anything I have ever
said. It is a real stretch to say that I represent U.S.
imperialism. I have denounced imperialism over and over. But on the second
level you are trying to read minds, both mine and Mostafa's. Does it not
even occur to you to accept stated motives rather than pretend to know what
people are thinking and base your guesses at motives on your assumed
telepathy. Okay, let me explain it again. While I may get some
gratification out of winning a contest of logic against Mostafa that is not
why I do it. I also do not do it to convince him of anything. I have said
over and over that no matter how religious a person might be, if they don't
bother me about their religion I don't bother them about their religion.
But when it comes to those religious harassers it is another matter. I am
talking about the ones who follow you around trying to beat you over the
head with their religion. I am talking about the ones will not leave you
alone no matter how much you tell them that you are not interested. I am
talking about the kind of people who will follow a blind man down the
street screaming at him that god has struck him blind because he turned his
back on Jesus. I got fed up with those ass holes years ago, but no matter
how much I tell them that I am fed up with them insulting my intelligence
with their harassment they won't stop. So here we have a religious
harasser. He is the first Muslim harasser I have come across unless you
count the one who would not let me off his email list back before Mostafa
came along, but he is still a religious harasser. He first came to my
attention when other people started to complain about him on various email
lists. He harvested email addresses and bombarded people with his
proselytizing and when they asked to be removed he refused. When people
blocked him he tried to get around the blocks. This is outright harassment.
It is bullying. So I fight back. I may not fight back in the same way that
others fight back, but I fight back. I engage him in logical debate because
he insults my intelligence and since this is an argument that I always win
I always manage to point up who the real idiot is. And don't say that I win
in my own mind. When I make a logical argument or point out a logical
fallacy in his arguments and he has no refutation, but only launches into a
tantrum of name calling, insults and threats, I win and my win is right
there for you and anyone who is reading the exchange to see. I take on the
challenge because if he wants to insult my intelligence it is like saying,
okay, let's see who the real fool is. Now, I have told you my motives
again. There is no reason for you to ignore what I have said that my
motives for taking on Mostafa are. I don't know why you want to try to
pretend to read minds when I so clearly lay out to you why I am actually
doing something. Mostafa is a bully and a harasser and I am giving it right
back to him.
---
Voltaire
“ Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit
atrocities. ”
― Voltaire,
On 7/22/2019 9:27 AM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
I forgot one more factor and that is a political one. In these debates,
Roger inadvertently represents the US, the super power of the world, the
country that overthrows democracies in favor of dictators who support it
and then provides military aid to the dictators. It has proclaimed, since
W Bush's administration, a Christian crusade, with many members of the
military saying this explicitly. Mustafa is a citizen of one of the
multitude of countries that the US dominates. When Mustafa proclaims his
version of the truth on our list, he is also proclaiming his rage at the
US for how it behaves in the Middle East. Roger's self satisfaction when
he believes that he has won a logical argument, doesn't undo any of what
is really going on. Winning an argument with logic doesn't obliterate
religious belief or the anger of people in other countries or Mustafa's
need to assert himself. It's kind of like getting into a fist fight in a
bar. You win the fight and you feel good momentarily, but nothing has
changed.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Loran Bailey
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 9:54 PM
To:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [blind-democracy] Re: This sounds like Mostafa.
Name calling and insult throwing is not an example of poor English skills.
It is just hostility and tantrum throwing. I bested Mostafa in a debate in
logic. He has been throwing a tantrum ever since.
---
Voltaire
“ Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit
atrocities. ”
― Voltaire,
On 7/21/2019 9:18 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
There may be several factors involved in the faulty communication between
Roger and Mustafa. One of them is Mustafa's limitations in expressing
himself in English. He may be sounding more emphatic than he means to
because he doesn't know the idioms and nuances of the English language.
Roger may not always truly comprehend what Mustafa is attempting to say.
Another problem is that they come from totally different cultural
backgrounds. They don't start from the same assumptions. That fact
certainly impedes positive communication. A third factor may be that each
is emotionally invested in his point of view. When they become involved
in verbal confrontations, each feels that his manhood or his is involved.
And there's one more thing. Roger apparently believes that it is his duty
to educate everyone or, to put it another way, to convince everyone to
think as he does. Mustafa may have the same compulsion. I don't enjoy
battles so I don't read their email debates. I just delete them. I
remember one night when Joe and Frank were engaged in a terrible email
fight. That was an awful experience and it was the last time I ever read
battling emails.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx On Behalf Of Roger
Loran Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 8:41 PM
To:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Carl Jarvis<carjar82@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: This sounds like Mostafa.
By all means, any of us can have a gap in our education. That was a point
I was making in my other message about whether there is such a thing as a
stupid question. If it is an honest question asked in an attempt to learn
it is not a stupid question. Sometimes it can be a bit frustrating when
you realize that in order to answer it in a way that the questioner will
understand you will have to start educating that person from an
elementary school level and I, for one, cannot do that.
However, if it is an honest question asked with the intention of learning
I can try to do my best to answer. However, an honest attempt to learn is
not what Mostafa is doing with his ignorant questions and pronouncements.
He proudly shows his ignorance in order to discredit entire branches of
science. He shows his ignorance in order to discredit me. At least that
is what he is trying to do. But he manages to actually ask questions that
have to be called stupid questions. They are stupid because when he gets
an answer he refuses to accept it. He just keeps repeating the ignorance
that he has been caught up in. That is a refusal to learn. It is just a
hostile act. And what he discredits more than anything is himself.
---
Voltaire
??? Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit
atrocities. ???
??? Voltaire,
On 7/21/2019 1:02 PM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
It's frustrating. But I would point out that any of us can have
a gap in our education, or a lack of ability to grasp information
that is well understood by other people.
The value of an opinion based list, such as this one should be,
that we can expose our lack of education and receive positive
guidance without feeling threatened or put down. But that calls
for an open mind on our part, and understanding people who give
their information and opinions in a helpful and caring manner.
Carl Jarvis...who has learned a great deal through interaction on this
list.
On 7/20/19, Roger Loran Bailey<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I just had to tell you guys about this. This sounds exactly like
something Mostafa would say. There is a Facebook discussion
group on the subject of science that I subscribe to. It is open
to all, but I would expect that people who would subscribe would
have some interest in science and so would have some kind of
knowledge of science even if only rudimentary. Apparently that is not
the case.
Someone just showed up and said that we all know that combustion
requires the presence of oxygen, so is there oxygen in the sun
to make combustion take place there? Some others started to give
answers explaining that chemical combustion takes place in the
presence of oxygen, but that what is happening in the sun is
nuclear fusion. Personally, it seems to me that if a person
could seriously ask that question then it is unlikely that he
would understand such answers. I would not be surprised if he
did not even know what nuclear fusion is. I did not even bother
to try to answer him. With someone like that the only way to
give a good answer would be to go back to elementary science
class and teach him that and to continue to teach him until he
finally reached a point that he could understand. This is
exactly how I feel when Mostafa asks questions like, if we descended
from monkeys then why are there still monkeys?
How can you give a meaningful answer to someone that ignorant?
It is exasperating. It is also similar to another one I saw
once. I don't know if this was supposed to be a joke, but if it
wasn't it is about just as exasperating. Someone from Nigeria once
asked, if the Earth really rotates then why am I still in Nigeria?
--
---
Voltaire
??? Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you
commit atrocities. ???
??? Voltaire,
