Roger,
You're responding to bits and pieces of what I've written, perhaps because you
don't understand what I've been attempting to say to you or perhaps, because
it's your way of fighting back. But I'm not trying to fight with you. I know
that Mustafa has written things that all of us have found to be objectionable.
I pointed out what some of his reasons may have been for writing what he
writes. I also pointed out that arguing with him only causes him to become more
upset and write more extreme things. Because this argument between the two of
you has continued for quite some time and because it continues to escalate, I
suggested that you stop responding to him. The fact that you feel that you've
won the argument is irrelevant to everyone except you.
You have, in fact, over the course of several years, scolded me and other
people for using words incorrectly or for showing a lack of understanding of
concepts that you believe we should understand. You have complained that you've
needed to explain the same things over and over again to us because we keep
getting things wrong. You have told us to read certain books so that we could
understand all of the words and concepts that come up in our interchanges,
properly. I mentioned the word, "bourgeois", as one example of this habitual
behavior of yours. I suppose that the adjective which most accurately describes
your behavior, is, "pedantic". You reprimand us when we stray from the ideas
and useage of words, which you believe to be correct.
I've encountered you and several other lists and you don't do the same things
on those lists that you do on this one. I started this thread because of your
focus on Mustafa. I think that given the fact that his English competence is
limited and that his background and culture are different from our's, none of
us should be targeting him as you have.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx On Behalf Of Roger Loran Bailey
(Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2019 7:52 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: This sounds like Mostafa.
Miriam, when I make an argument and get no refutation, but instead get a
tantrum I have won the argument. It is right there for you to see and for
everyone to see. Yes, that gives me pleasure and it does not matter if I have
convinced Mostafa of anything. I have a problem understanding how you can see
Mostafa's rants with insults and name calling in response to my calmly stated
arguments and then have the nerve to call my responses to that as somehow
nasty. What you are saying to me and the accusations that you make against me
strike me as simply insane. Where are your criticisms of Mostafa and his
vitriol? And, by the way, I have never in my life insisted that anyone use the
word bourgeois and until you came along I have never in my life had anyone
object to my using that word, ever. I do not see where you are getting it that
somehow I have a problem with anyone not using the word bourgeois. That strikes
me as insane too.
---
Voltaire
“ Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities. ”
― Voltaire,
On 7/24/2019 3:56 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Don't you care how unkind this email sounds? If you say it's so much fund to
give back to a bully , what he dishes out, that sounds sadistic. It doesn't
sound like justice.
For the people who use the term, "middle class", it has a specific meaning.
You have a preference for the term, "bourgeois" and you define it as you have
been taught to. But that doesn't mean that the rest of us ought to use that
term and there's no requirement for us to think as you do.
Yes, you do repeat some things over and over again and I am paying attention.
But if I don't accept something that you have been repeating over and over
again at face value, it's usually because it doesn't make sense to me or it
sounds unbelievable. I'm not sure what you mean about my not accepting what
you say are your reasons for being as stubborn and unreasonable as Mustafa
is. Your reason is that you derive pleasure in using logic to win and
argument. The only problem with your explanation is that you haven't won the
argument. You haven't proven anything to Mustafa, , and all you've proven to
the rest of us is that you can be really nasty in your attempt to prove a
point. Is that what you want to do?
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2019 3:08 PM
To: blind-democracy <blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: This sounds like Mostafa.
The reason bourgeois is okay is that unlike middle class it actually has a
specific meaning. I have not blocked because it is so much fun to give
back to a bully what he dishes out and I have told you that. If you don't
like my saying that I have told you something over and over then pay
attention to what I say in the first place and accept it without making up
motives for me that have nothing to do with the motives that I clearly state
over and over. And, also, you do not have to look for evidence that I am a
Marxist because I forthrightly say that I am. But that does not mean that
everything I say is Marxist theory and so it would be really nice if you
could learn how to tell a personal opinion from Marxist theory.
---
Voltaire
“ Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.
”
― Voltaire,
On 7/24/2019 12:53 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Roger,
Why is the word, bourgeois OK, but not middle class? Your reasons that you
state over and over again, which I have read over and over again, are your
particular private prejudice. They're not rational and shouldn't be imposed
on the rest of us. You say insulting things when I, or anyone else, uses
that word, even though it is in common useage and it doesn't mean what you
choose to believe that it means. The fact that I don't accept your censure,
doesn't make you the victim.
As for Mustafa, again, you keep repeating the same thing about him over and
over again. You refuse to see his behavior through another lens. Another
list member, someone from his culture and background, has just provided you
with some verification of what I say. But no matter what evidence is
suggested to you that his behavior might be motivated by something other
than outright meanness and bullying, you are sticking to your own opinion.
Your behavior mirrors his. You excuse your bullying by saying that you are
defending yourself. You claim that religious fanatics are pursuing you and
that it is your right to fight back. However, all that Mustafa is doing is
asserting is ideas and beliefs repeatedly on email lists. He would not be
addressing you directly if you hadn't responded to him. If you don't wish
him to continue to address emails to you which you find offensive, all you
need to do is to delete his emails without responding to him. Instead, you
are choosing to insult him publicly on an email list, sometimes, even when
he hasn't been writing anything at all.
Roger, this is my last email on the subject and I chose to write it, even
knowing that it would be upsetting to you, because I believe that you've
been unfair to Mustafa and also, to others of us on this list. The ways in
which you choose to disagree with us seem hurtful and insulting to me.
Perhaps you don't realize that. But to me, and certainly to Alice while she
was a list member, your responses seemed like bullying. You scold us by
saying things like, "'ve told you over and over again and somehow you don't
understand me...". You told me in several emails that I'm misrepresenting
your opinions when I say that they derive from Marxist theory. But every
article you post is from a Marxist oriented publication. You derogate anyone
who uses the word, "socialist", in ways that you deem to be inappropriate
and you make that decision based on its literal definition in the books you
read. You've told us that we use the word, "propaganda", inappropriately,
also because we weren't using it as its used in the socialist literature you
read. I have no idea how many people have chosen not to post to this list
for fear of bringing down your wrath, or how many people have quietly left
the list because although you say that there are no rules, they don't feel
comfortable here. I'm sorry to have felt that it was necessary to write
this, but I don't want to be a coward and just take the easy way out.
Perhaps it's because I'm reading a book about a very wealthy family whose
wealth was vastly increased by its investment in German industry during the
Nazi era, or because I think the Democratic Party, in its zeal to keep its
donors and its swing voters, has led us on a path to hell, or because the
American public has allowed itself to be manipulated into passivity. So I
just feel that because this email list has been very important to me over
the past several years, I need to speak out against something that seems
wrong.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Loran Bailey
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2019 10:14 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [blind-democracy] Re: This sounds like Mostafa.
I am a Marxist, but that remark in there about the phrase middle class is an
example of exactly what I am talking about. Just what does my distaste for
the phrase middle class have to do with Marxism? Once before, after I had
explained over and over why I have a distaste for that phrase, you said that
you thought it was because it was not one of the classes that Marx had
delineated. I never have figured out why you thought that after I had
explained the real reasons I don't like it so many times. And that is why I
get so frustrated. I explain and explain a concept over and over and you
just don't get it and you just did it in this very message. As for Mostafa,
this is something else I have explained over and over. If Mostafa would just
express himself then he could just express himself. But he doesn't do that.
He is a relentless bully who insists on forcing his nonsense on people. I am
giving him back what he gives and I do notice that he is one of those people
who can dish it out, but can't take it.
---
Voltaire
“ Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit
atrocities. ”
― Voltaire,
On 7/23/2019 3:39 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Roger,
Am I mistaken in thinking that you are a socialist and that most of the
nonfiction material that you read is influenced by Marxist theory? Haven't
you criticized people who call themselves socialist when they do not adhere
to classical socialism? Do you not write disparagingly of anyone whose
opinions seem to you to be Liberal or bourgeois? Do you not disparage the
use of the term, middle class, and accuse those who define themselves as
such of being snobs? Do you not sneer at Democratic Socialists because they
aren't in favor of what you consider to be real socialism? Having seen all
of these themes in your posts for a good number of years, I have come to
the conclusion that you are a Marxist Socialist, whatever that actually is.
You have very fixed ideas about socialism and you continually try to
indoctrinate people with those ideas when you complain that some of us are
refusing to understand you and that, therefore, you are forced to explain a
particular concept to us, yet one more time. So, on the few occasions that
your utterances aren't motivated by your close adherence to socialist
theory, I think I can be forgiven if I mistakenly think that they are. But
for those infrequent moments, I apologize.
As for Mustafa, he may very well behave in all the ways that you describe.
But which response you make to his behavior, is your choice. An alternative
to what you invariably do, is just to allow him to express his beliefs and
his assertions and his anger and his sense of superiority anddo or say
nothing at all. How long do you imagine that he would continue to insult
you if you ignored him?
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 9:22 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: This sounds like Mostafa.
You would do a lot better if you just dumped the assumptions and
accepted the stated motivations that are clearly given. To allude to
just another example, you might stop calling my personal opinions
Marxist theory when they have little to do with Marxist theory and
when I point you to a book that I have never read the synopsis of
which makes me think it might explain what fascism is you wouldn't
assume that it gave some kind of Marxist definition of Marxism. But
again with Mostafa. He does not just explain his religion. He does
not just discuss it. He seeks people out and puts them on his
personal mailing list and won't let them go and when they ask to be
removed he just keeps bombarding them with his proselytizing anyway.
That is not exercising his freedom of speech. That is out and out
harassment and I see no excuse for it. As for telling him that his
preaching is not welcome on this list, I set up this list with the
full intention of moderating it by not moderating it. As far as I am
concerned he or anyone else can say anything they want here and I
have never banned or altered any post that he has ever made here. He
can exercise his freedom of speech here, but he has to face up to
the fact that some people will disagree with him and say so. I not
only say so, but I show him where he is wrong. Of course, with faith
on his side he will not admit it no matter how well I show him to be
wrong, but I still show him to be wrong
---
Voltaire
“ Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit
atrocities. ”
― Voltaire,
On 7/22/2019 5:16 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
I didn't mean that you literally represent the American empire. What I
meant was that all of us on this list, represent the American empire to
Mustafa. We're all in America. He's writing to us about what our
government does. Why do you suppose that he does that?
I suppose that you're correct when you say that I'm making assumptions
about people's motivations. That's what most people do and I do that a lot
because of my professional training and because of my personal
inclinations. And I don't always accept the reasons that people give for
their behavior as their true motivations. I can see how that might make
you angry.
As for proselytizing, there were two times in my life when someone tried
to convince me to believe in God. Each time, I responded that I had my own
beliefs and value system, that I respected their right to believe as they
did, and I would appreciate it if they would respect my right to do the
same. It was friendly and there were no arguments. So I suspect that when
Mustafa began to write about religion, you could have chosen not to answer
those particular posts, just as I did, and there would have been no more
discussion. Or you might have written that you respected his right to his
religious beliefs, but you would appreciate it if he did not share them on
this list. I don't know what his response would have been to that. But you
chose to debate him instead. You made a decision that if anyone began
attempting to convince you to believe as he or she did about religion, it
was your right and your duty to fight back. When Mustafa has written about
religion on other lists, other people have made similar choices. Given
the results of these discussions, I wonder why people keep having them.
The only conclusion which I can draw is that you derive some kind of
emotional satisfaction from endless argument. From your explanation to me,
it sounds like what you're saying is that you are seeking revenge because
you say, " I don't know why you want to try to pretend to read minds when
I so clearly lay out to you why I am actually doing something. Mostafa is
a bully and a harasser and I am giving it right back to him."
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 3:43 PM
To: blind-democracy<blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: This sounds like Mostafa.
On two levels you seem to have never paid attention to anything I have
ever said. It is a real stretch to say that I represent U.S.
imperialism. I have denounced imperialism over and over. But on the second
level you are trying to read minds, both mine and Mostafa's. Does it not
even occur to you to accept stated motives rather than pretend to know
what people are thinking and base your guesses at motives on your assumed
telepathy. Okay, let me explain it again. While I may get some
gratification out of winning a contest of logic against Mostafa that is
not why I do it. I also do not do it to convince him of anything. I have
said over and over that no matter how religious a person might be, if they
don't bother me about their religion I don't bother them about their
religion. But when it comes to those religious harassers it is another
matter. I am talking about the ones who follow you around trying to beat
you over the head with their religion. I am talking about the ones will
not leave you alone no matter how much you tell them that you are not
interested. I am talking about the kind of people who will follow a blind
man down the street screaming at him that god has struck him blind because
he turned his back on Jesus. I got fed up with those ass holes years ago,
but no matter how much I tell them that I am fed up with them insulting my
intelligence with their harassment they won't stop. So here we have a
religious harasser. He is the first Muslim harasser I have come across
unless you count the one who would not let me off his email list back
before Mostafa came along, but he is still a religious harasser. He first
came to my attention when other people started to complain about him on
various email lists. He harvested email addresses and bombarded people
with his proselytizing and when they asked to be removed he refused. When
people blocked him he tried to get around the blocks. This is outright
harassment. It is bullying. So I fight back. I may not fight back in the
same way that others fight back, but I fight back. I engage him in logical
debate because he insults my intelligence and since this is an argument
that I always win I always manage to point up who the real idiot is. And
don't say that I win in my own mind. When I make a logical argument or
point out a logical fallacy in his arguments and he has no refutation, but
only launches into a tantrum of name calling, insults and threats, I win
and my win is right there for you and anyone who is reading the exchange
to see. I take on the challenge because if he wants to insult my
intelligence it is like saying, okay, let's see who the real fool is. Now,
I have told you my motives again. There is no reason for you to ignore
what I have said that my motives for taking on Mostafa are. I don't know
why you want to try to pretend to read minds when I so clearly lay out to
you why I am actually doing something. Mostafa is a bully and a harasser
and I am giving it right back to him.
---
Voltaire
“ Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit
atrocities. ”
― Voltaire,
On 7/22/2019 9:27 AM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
I forgot one more factor and that is a political one. In these debates,
Roger inadvertently represents the US, the super power of the world, the
country that overthrows democracies in favor of dictators who support it
and then provides military aid to the dictators. It has proclaimed, since
W Bush's administration, a Christian crusade, with many members of the
military saying this explicitly. Mustafa is a citizen of one of the
multitude of countries that the US dominates. When Mustafa proclaims his
version of the truth on our list, he is also proclaiming his rage at the
US for how it behaves in the Middle East. Roger's self satisfaction when
he believes that he has won a logical argument, doesn't undo any of what
is really going on. Winning an argument with logic doesn't obliterate
religious belief or the anger of people in other countries or Mustafa's
need to assert himself. It's kind of like getting into a fist fight in a
bar. You win the fight and you feel good momentarily, but nothing has
changed.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Loran Bailey
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 9:54 PM
To:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [blind-democracy] Re: This sounds like Mostafa.
Name calling and insult throwing is not an example of poor English
skills. It is just hostility and tantrum throwing. I bested Mostafa in a
debate in logic. He has been throwing a tantrum ever since.
---
Voltaire
“ Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit
atrocities. ”
― Voltaire,
On 7/21/2019 9:18 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
There may be several factors involved in the faulty communication
between Roger and Mustafa. One of them is Mustafa's limitations in
expressing himself in English. He may be sounding more emphatic than he
means to because he doesn't know the idioms and nuances of the English
language. Roger may not always truly comprehend what Mustafa is
attempting to say. Another problem is that they come from totally
different cultural backgrounds. They don't start from the same
assumptions. That fact certainly impedes positive communication. A third
factor may be that each is emotionally invested in his point of view.
When they become involved in verbal confrontations, each feels that his
manhood or his is involved. And there's one more thing. Roger apparently
believes that it is his duty to educate everyone or, to put it another
way, to convince everyone to think as he does. Mustafa may have the same
compulsion. I don't enjoy battles so I don't read their email debates. I
just delete them. I remember one night when Joe and Frank were engaged
in a terrible email fight. That was an awful experience and it was the
last time I ever read battling emails.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx On Behalf Of Roger
Loran Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 8:41 PM
To:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Carl Jarvis<carjar82@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: This sounds like Mostafa.
By all means, any of us can have a gap in our education. That was a
point I was making in my other message about whether there is such a
thing as a stupid question. If it is an honest question asked in an
attempt to learn it is not a stupid question. Sometimes it can be a bit
frustrating when you realize that in order to answer it in a way that
the questioner will understand you will have to start educating that
person from an elementary school level and I, for one, cannot do that.
However, if it is an honest question asked with the intention of
learning I can try to do my best to answer. However, an honest attempt
to learn is not what Mostafa is doing with his ignorant questions and
pronouncements. He proudly shows his ignorance in order to discredit
entire branches of science. He shows his ignorance in order to discredit
me. At least that is what he is trying to do. But he manages to actually
ask questions that have to be called stupid questions. They are stupid
because when he gets an answer he refuses to accept it. He just keeps
repeating the ignorance that he has been caught up in. That is a refusal
to learn. It is just a hostile act. And what he discredits more than
anything is himself.
---
Voltaire
??? Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit
atrocities. ???
??? Voltaire,
On 7/21/2019 1:02 PM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
It's frustrating. But I would point out that any of us can have
a gap in our education, or a lack of ability to grasp
information that is well understood by other people.
The value of an opinion based list, such as this one should be,
that we can expose our lack of education and receive positive
guidance without feeling threatened or put down. But that calls
for an open mind on our part, and understanding people who give
their information and opinions in a helpful and caring manner.
Carl Jarvis...who has learned a great deal through interaction on this
list.
On 7/20/19, Roger Loran Bailey<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I just had to tell you guys about this. This sounds exactly
like something Mostafa would say. There is a Facebook
discussion group on the subject of science that I subscribe to.
It is open to all, but I would expect that people who would
subscribe would have some interest in science and so would have
some kind of knowledge of science even if only rudimentary. Apparently
that is not the case.
Someone just showed up and said that we all know that
combustion requires the presence of oxygen, so is there oxygen
in the sun to make combustion take place there? Some others
started to give answers explaining that chemical combustion
takes place in the presence of oxygen, but that what is
happening in the sun is nuclear fusion. Personally, it seems to
me that if a person could seriously ask that question then it
is unlikely that he would understand such answers. I would not
be surprised if he did not even know what nuclear fusion is. I
did not even bother to try to answer him. With someone like
that the only way to give a good answer would be to go back to
elementary science class and teach him that and to continue to
teach him until he finally reached a point that he could
understand. This is exactly how I feel when Mostafa asks questions
like, if we descended from monkeys then why are there still monkeys?
How can you give a meaningful answer to someone that ignorant?
It is exasperating. It is also similar to another one I saw
once. I don't know if this was supposed to be a joke, but if it
wasn't it is about just as exasperating. Someone from Nigeria once
asked, if the Earth really rotates then why am I still in Nigeria?
--
---
Voltaire
??? Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you
commit atrocities. ???
??? Voltaire,
