You know, :globe trotting experiences" is a rather pejorative way of describing
what I have done. I've traveled to a number of countries, usually on tours
arranged for blind people, in order to experience different countries and
different cultures directly so that I could learn more about the world and
about how other people live, so that I could see places that I've read about,
and so that I could enjoy nature. I was able to do that because I was lucky
enough to earn enough money to travel. I'm so grateful to have had the
opportunity to do so while I still had some useable vision and before my
arthritis and spinal condition made doing so impossible.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx On Behalf Of Roger Loran Bailey
(Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 9:19 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: This sounds like Mostafa.
By the way, if you have had only two people push their religion on you and they
stopped when you asked them to I would say that you are really lucky, but I
think I may see why you have escaped the worst of it. You have told us about
your globe trotting experiences and you have told us that you spent some time
in Michigan, but just how much time have you spent south of the Mason Dixon
line? And I don't think Florida counts.
Most of the people in Florida were not born in Florida. Except for Florida it
is known as the bible belt. It could also be called the evangelical belt
because these sects are not just satisfied with being bible believers. They
think they have to evangelize everyone else too. I think I live in the northern
fringes of the bible belt, so I may not be in the worst areas, but I expect
that if you lived around here you would not have gotten off so easy.
---
Voltaire
“ Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities. ”
― Voltaire,
On 7/22/2019 5:16 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
I didn't mean that you literally represent the American empire. What I meant
was that all of us on this list, represent the American empire to Mustafa.
We're all in America. He's writing to us about what our government does. Why
do you suppose that he does that?
I suppose that you're correct when you say that I'm making assumptions about
people's motivations. That's what most people do and I do that a lot because
of my professional training and because of my personal inclinations. And I
don't always accept the reasons that people give for their behavior as their
true motivations. I can see how that might make you angry.
As for proselytizing, there were two times in my life when someone tried to
convince me to believe in God. Each time, I responded that I had my own
beliefs and value system, that I respected their right to believe as they
did, and I would appreciate it if they would respect my right to do the same.
It was friendly and there were no arguments. So I suspect that when Mustafa
began to write about religion, you could have chosen not to answer those
particular posts, just as I did, and there would have been no more
discussion. Or you might have written that you respected his right to his
religious beliefs, but you would appreciate it if he did not share them on
this list. I don't know what his response would have been to that. But you
chose to debate him instead. You made a decision that if anyone began
attempting to convince you to believe as he or she did about religion, it was
your right and your duty to fight back. When Mustafa has written about
religion on other lists, other people have made similar choices. Given the
results of these discussions, I wonder why people keep having them. The only
conclusion which I can draw is that you derive some kind of emotional
satisfaction from endless argument. From your explanation to me, it sounds
like what you're saying is that you are seeking revenge because you say, " I
don't know why you want to try to pretend to read minds when I so clearly lay
out to you why I am actually doing something. Mostafa is a bully and a
harasser and I am giving it right back to him."
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 3:43 PM
To: blind-democracy <blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: This sounds like Mostafa.
On two levels you seem to have never paid attention to anything I have ever
said. It is a real stretch to say that I represent U.S.
imperialism. I have denounced imperialism over and over. But on the second
level you are trying to read minds, both mine and Mostafa's. Does it not even
occur to you to accept stated motives rather than pretend to know what people
are thinking and base your guesses at motives on your assumed telepathy.
Okay, let me explain it again. While I may get some gratification out of
winning a contest of logic against Mostafa that is not why I do it. I also do
not do it to convince him of anything. I have said over and over that no
matter how religious a person might be, if they don't bother me about their
religion I don't bother them about their religion. But when it comes to those
religious harassers it is another matter. I am talking about the ones who
follow you around trying to beat you over the head with their religion. I am
talking about the ones will not leave you alone no matter how much you tell
them that you are not interested. I am talking about the kind of people who
will follow a blind man down the street screaming at him that god has struck
him blind because he turned his back on Jesus. I got fed up with those ass
holes years ago, but no matter how much I tell them that I am fed up with
them insulting my intelligence with their harassment they won't stop. So here
we have a religious harasser. He is the first Muslim harasser I have come
across unless you count the one who would not let me off his email list back
before Mostafa came along, but he is still a religious harasser. He first
came to my attention when other people started to complain about him on
various email lists. He harvested email addresses and bombarded people with
his proselytizing and when they asked to be removed he refused. When people
blocked him he tried to get around the blocks. This is outright harassment.
It is bullying. So I fight back. I may not fight back in the same way that
others fight back, but I fight back. I engage him in logical debate because
he insults my intelligence and since this is an argument that I always win I
always manage to point up who the real idiot is. And don't say that I win in
my own mind. When I make a logical argument or point out a logical fallacy in
his arguments and he has no refutation, but only launches into a tantrum of
name calling, insults and threats, I win and my win is right there for you
and anyone who is reading the exchange to see. I take on the challenge
because if he wants to insult my intelligence it is like saying, okay, let's
see who the real fool is. Now, I have told you my motives again. There is no
reason for you to ignore what I have said that my motives for taking on
Mostafa are. I don't know why you want to try to pretend to read minds when I
so clearly lay out to you why I am actually doing something. Mostafa is a
bully and a harasser and I am giving it right back to him.
---
Voltaire
“ Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.
”
― Voltaire,
On 7/22/2019 9:27 AM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
I forgot one more factor and that is a political one. In these debates,
Roger inadvertently represents the US, the super power of the world, the
country that overthrows democracies in favor of dictators who support it and
then provides military aid to the dictators. It has proclaimed, since W
Bush's administration, a Christian crusade, with many members of the
military saying this explicitly. Mustafa is a citizen of one of the
multitude of countries that the US dominates. When Mustafa proclaims his
version of the truth on our list, he is also proclaiming his rage at the US
for how it behaves in the Middle East. Roger's self satisfaction when he
believes that he has won a logical argument, doesn't undo any of what is
really going on. Winning an argument with logic doesn't obliterate religious
belief or the anger of people in other countries or Mustafa's need to assert
himself. It's kind of like getting into a fist fight in a bar. You win the
fight and you feel good momentarily, but nothing has changed.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Loran Bailey
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 9:54 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [blind-democracy] Re: This sounds like Mostafa.
Name calling and insult throwing is not an example of poor English skills.
It is just hostility and tantrum throwing. I bested Mostafa in a debate in
logic. He has been throwing a tantrum ever since.
---
Voltaire
“ Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit
atrocities. ”
― Voltaire,
On 7/21/2019 9:18 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
There may be several factors involved in the faulty communication between
Roger and Mustafa. One of them is Mustafa's limitations in expressing
himself in English. He may be sounding more emphatic than he means to
because he doesn't know the idioms and nuances of the English language.
Roger may not always truly comprehend what Mustafa is attempting to say.
Another problem is that they come from totally different cultural
backgrounds. They don't start from the same assumptions. That fact
certainly impedes positive communication. A third factor may be that each
is emotionally invested in his point of view. When they become involved in
verbal confrontations, each feels that his manhood or his is involved. And
there's one more thing. Roger apparently believes that it is his duty to
educate everyone or, to put it another way, to convince everyone to think
as he does. Mustafa may have the same compulsion. I don't enjoy battles so
I don't read their email debates. I just delete them. I remember one night
when Joe and Frank were engaged in a terrible email fight. That was an
awful experience and it was the last time I ever read battling emails.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 8:41 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Carl Jarvis <carjar82@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: This sounds like Mostafa.
By all means, any of us can have a gap in our education. That was a point I
was making in my other message about whether there is such a thing as a
stupid question. If it is an honest question asked in an attempt to learn
it is not a stupid question. Sometimes it can be a bit frustrating when you
realize that in order to answer it in a way that the questioner will
understand you will have to start educating that person from an elementary
school level and I, for one, cannot do that.
However, if it is an honest question asked with the intention of learning I
can try to do my best to answer. However, an honest attempt to learn is not
what Mostafa is doing with his ignorant questions and pronouncements. He
proudly shows his ignorance in order to discredit entire branches of
science. He shows his ignorance in order to discredit me. At least that is
what he is trying to do. But he manages to actually ask questions that have
to be called stupid questions. They are stupid because when he gets an
answer he refuses to accept it. He just keeps repeating the ignorance that
he has been caught up in. That is a refusal to learn. It is just a hostile
act. And what he discredits more than anything is himself.
---
Voltaire
??? Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit
atrocities. ???
??? Voltaire,
On 7/21/2019 1:02 PM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
It's frustrating. But I would point out that any of us can have a
gap in our education, or a lack of ability to grasp information
that is well understood by other people.
The value of an opinion based list, such as this one should be,
that we can expose our lack of education and receive positive
guidance without feeling threatened or put down. But that calls
for an open mind on our part, and understanding people who give
their information and opinions in a helpful and caring manner.
Carl Jarvis...who has learned a great deal through interaction on this
list.
On 7/20/19, Roger Loran Bailey <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I just had to tell you guys about this. This sounds exactly like
something Mostafa would say. There is a Facebook discussion group
on the subject of science that I subscribe to. It is open to all,
but I would expect that people who would subscribe would have some
interest in science and so would have some kind of knowledge of
science even if only rudimentary. Apparently that is not the case.
Someone just showed up and said that we all know that combustion
requires the presence of oxygen, so is there oxygen in the sun to
make combustion take place there? Some others started to give
answers explaining that chemical combustion takes place in the
presence of oxygen, but that what is happening in the sun is
nuclear fusion. Personally, it seems to me that if a person could
seriously ask that question then it is unlikely that he would
understand such answers. I would not be surprised if he did not
even know what nuclear fusion is. I did not even bother to try to
answer him. With someone like that the only way to give a good
answer would be to go back to elementary science class and teach
him that and to continue to teach him until he finally reached a
point that he could understand. This is exactly how I feel when
Mostafa asks questions like, if we descended from monkeys then why are
there still monkeys?
How can you give a meaningful answer to someone that ignorant? It
is exasperating. It is also similar to another one I saw once. I
don't know if this was supposed to be a joke, but if it wasn't it
is about just as exasperating. Someone from Nigeria once asked, if the
Earth really rotates then why am I still in Nigeria?
--
---
Voltaire
??? Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you
commit atrocities. ???
??? Voltaire,
